GREEK MYTH |
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EROS
& PARIS - Berlin 30036
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GREEK MYTH |
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EROS
& PARIS - Berlin 30036
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22:59:07 [Anthony] Good evening, all!
22:59:27 [yosenl] hello
22:59:28 [nazish] Hi
23:00:02 [Anthony] Everyone surviving OK?
23:00:48 [yosenl] hm more or less
23:00:57 [yosenl] prof bulloch, when are your OH, I can't find them on the web page
23:01:06 [nazish] Things will be wonderful once spring break starts
23:01:46 [Anthony] Let's see - Monday 2 - 2.45 and Thursday 11.15 - 11.45. (I think they are posted somewhere on the website.)
23:02:22 [Anthony] Plans for the break, Nazish?
23:03:00 [nazish] yes, going to LA!
23:03:15 [Anthony] Family there?
23:03:17 [nazish] lots of non-academic plans to accompany some studying
23:03:27 [nazish] well yes, but i'm going to be staying with a friend
23:03:35 [nazish] how about everyone else?
23:04:00 [yosenl] I'm gonna go to vegas
23:04:07 [Anthony] How about you, Yosen?
23:04:12 [yosenl] get rich hopefully, haha
23:04:29 [nazish] it could happen
23:04:41 [Anthony] Do you gamble there?
23:05:03 [yosenl] yeah
23:05:16 [yosenl] might watch some of those performances too, if there's any good ones
23:05:36 [nazish] i heard it's just fun looking at the hotels, eating the food
23:05:51 [yosenl] yeah, lots of buffets
23:05:57 [yosenl] so you can sit in there for like 3 hrs and just eat
23:05:58 [yosenl] hehe
23:06:15 [Anthony] Does that give you any thoughts about Greek (mythic?) attitudes towards things like chance? Responsibility?
23:06:57 [Anthony] any perspective, I mean?
23:07:01 [nazish] nice segue
23:07:04 [nazish] hmm
23:07:25 [yosenl] it kind of seems like the greeks were big on fate
23:07:38 [yosenl] that your future was decided for you
23:07:57 [Anthony] They certainly had a strong ssense of not being in control of 'life'
23:08:39 [Anthony] Jeannie wearing a black robe and hood!
23:09:13 [Anthony] Hi there, Kel! Welcome!
23:09:30 [Kel] hiya
23:09:51 [Anthony] We were chatting about Vegas (Yosen is going there over break), and perspectives on chance and fate....
23:10:09 [Kel] ohhh wow ive never been there
23:10:09 [Anthony] Hi there, Rebecca!
23:10:42 [Thetis] evening, all. what's up?
23:10:56 [Kel] haha funny how no one's here compared to last week =X
23:11:13 [Thetis] Nemesis> why the name change?
23:11:29 [Anthony] I had just asked Yosen if the Vegas experience, gambling, helped with any perspective on Greek mythic attitudes towards chance etc.
23:11:56 [Anthony] Yup - we're 60 short on this time a week ago - can't figure why....
23:12:00 [nazish] what stories have we read that have chance involved in them? i'm a little scatter-brained right now
23:12:06 [Thetis] o fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis!
23:12:13 [Anthony] Hi there, Lilian! Welcome!
23:12:27 [yosenl] well, Oedipus
23:12:41 [lilian] Hello!
23:12:54 [Anthony] go on, Yosen
23:13:12 [yosenl] well, fate is so strong in that story
23:13:24 [yosenl] that even knowing your fate, can't let you escape it
23:14:13 [Anthony] Hi Vincent! Is that handle a ref to 'Tales of the City'?
23:14:16 [yosenl] usually when I think of fate, I think that if you know it's coming, you can somehow alter it
23:15:03 [Anthony] Hmm - aren't there some Greek characters that thought that too?
23:15:52 [nazish] maybe your fate is determined but how you get there isn't
23:15:56 [yosenl] Cronus?
23:16:14 [Kel] odysseus too
23:16:40 [Anthony] How about Xuthus in the 'Ion'?
23:16:58 [Anthony] Kel? More?
23:17:49 [Thetis] yosenl, or anyone--can just anyone know his/her fate?
23:18:05 [Thetis] who are teh characters we've met that know what's going ot happen to them?
23:18:12 [Anthony] Anyone remember about Priam and Hecuba? (Paris....)
23:18:29 [yosenl] hm, the greeks seemed to believe that was possible, especially thru the oracles
23:18:36 [Anthony] Hi there, Lo! Welcome!
23:18:36 [Kel] achilles
23:18:45 [yosenl] paris was fated to be the downfall of troy right?
23:18:53 [yosenl] and his parents sent him out to the mountains
23:19:27 [Thetis] yosenl: yep. But then what happened?
23:19:28 [Anthony] Yes, they knew that it was either Paris or Troy....
23:19:39 [Kel] then cassandra was opposite, embracing her fate...
23:19:57 [Thetis] kel: but why did she?
23:20:10 [Anthony] (another 'family v. community' issue - whose welfare do you choose....
23:20:33 [yosenl] thetis: zeus gave him the choice with the golden apples and he chose aphrodite, thus fulfilling his fate
23:21:11 [Kel] hmm...i guess with cassandra, it would have been life as a mistress to agamemnon or death...besides no one would believe her prophecies anyway
23:22:23 [Anthony] Anyone know about Troilus?
23:22:44 [Anthony] ....Paris' baby brother....
23:23:04 [Kel] nope
23:23:17 [Anthony] I'll bet Rebecca has something else in mind too, Kel
23:23:35 [Thetis] yosenl: before that--what happened after he was left on the mountain?
23:24:03 [Thetis] anthony: am i that transparent?
23:24:19 [Kel] hehehe
23:25:00 [yosenl] thetis: I thought he was simply brought up by a shepherd
23:25:02 [Anthony] Only
to your friends.... 
But 'transparent' isn't the word I'd use...
23:25:12 [yosenl] and, as for cassandra, wasn't she a priestess of apollo
23:26:05 [Thetis] yosenl: exactly. and this reminds you of whom?
23:26:29 [yosenl] thetis: oedipus the king
23:26:52 [yosenl] thetis: both princes of their kingdoms who eventually fufilled their fate
23:27:00 [Anthony] OK - what about how Priam and Hecuba (king and queen, after all) handled the [fore-]knowledge about the effect of their actions?
23:27:26 [Thetis] yes (blast those trouble-making shepherds!)
23:28:09 [yosenl] what was the relative time period between those two stories?
23:28:25 [yosenl] they have very similar plot lines - did one come before the other?
23:28:49 [yosenl] I guess what I mean to ask is, are they connected somehow
23:28:54 [Anthony] Hi, Dariy! Welcomne!
23:29:19 [Anthony] Hi, Naomi! Welcome to you too!
23:29:40 [Naomi] thanx
23:30:45 [Anthony] Troilus is not completely irrelevant here: the mirror of Paris.
23:31:01 [Thetis] yosenl: what else might account for the similarity?
23:31:44 [yosenl] thetis: could it be just the culture?
23:32:05 [yosenl] troilus was killed by achilles
23:32:47 [nazish] what is the background info on troilus
23:33:00 [Thetis] yosenl: don't think quite so literally. Why do these 2 stories have a similar pattern, and how does that affect your reading of the fate element?
23:34:51 [yosenl] thetis: I'm not really sure...
23:35:11 [yosenl] other than that greek myth just has many recurring themes in general
23:35:35 [Thetis] yosenl: what do each of these stories tell you about fate?
23:36:06 [yosenl] thetis: that no matter how you try to escape it, you cannot
23:36:17 [Anthony] (hmmm.. thos recurring patterns are usually on about something, though....)
23:36:44 [Kel] how about something about the importance of oracles?
23:36:54 [Anthony] Hi there, Medea! Welcome!
23:37:03 [Thetis] yes, exactly! Who are the people that have access to thier fate?
23:37:04 [medea] hi anthony
23:37:26 [Kel] the elite?
23:37:39 [Kel] you only hear about the royalty consulting oracles in myth
23:38:00 [yosenl] thetis: the gods, and some of the mortals, thru the gods oracles
23:38:06 [Thetis] Kel: OK. Why royalty?
23:38:13 [Anthony] Hi there, Lynn! Welcome!
23:38:42 [Thetis] yosenl: yes, it's only through oracles/divine knowledge.
23:38:55 [snowlily] er? are you talking to me?
23:39:23 [Anthony] [Kel, communities also consult oracles. Individuals - ordinary people - too. But there's a reason mythic accounts concentrate on elites, of course
23:39:30 [Thetis] how does one access an oracle?
23:40:03 [medea] yea, mine eyes see, and my foot is on the mountain's brow
23:40:16 [Anthony] (or should I have said Lynn Ling?)
23:40:22 [Kel] go to a city with an oracle and make a tribute then ask a question?
23:40:24 [Thetis] how does one access an oracle?
23:40:29 [snowlily] hehe hi
23:40:35 [yosenl] well, through its priestesses? and prophets?
23:40:51 [lilian] i thought they bring gifts to the oracle and ask for a reading
23:40:52 [Anthony] Hi, Anna! Welcome!
23:41:43 [Thetis] Kel's correct: you go to the oracle, not the other way around. Visiting one takes a significant effort.
23:42:16 [snowlily] ok i have a question about the oracle. btw, is brigit here?
23:42:28 [Anthony] Put together what we've encountered so far, in the way of prophets, oracles etc.:....
23:42:41 [Kel] then it would be harder for just regular people to go consult an oracle than the elite right?
23:42:43 [Thetis] but the point I'm trying to make is that not everyone gets to know his or her fate: it's a privilege...
23:42:56 [Kel] yeah....
23:43:08 [Thetis] ...that can never be taken too seriously
23:43:36 [Anthony] Odysseus to Teiresias, Theoclymenus (with Telemachus), a seer in Iphigeneia at Aulis, the whole of Delphi in the Ion....
23:43:58 [Thetis] what kinds of things happen when people find out what's in store for them?
23:43:59 [snowlily] about the oracle, i don't get how it works. brigit said that during the pelopensian war the greeks went to the oracle
23:44:12 [yosenl] thetis: do you mean that should not be taken too lightly?
23:44:40 [snowlily] now i thought that the oracle is only a mythological role?
23:44:45 [Kel] thetis: it seems as if people either embrace their fate or try their hardest to avoid it
23:45:05 [snowlily] what actually happens at the oracle (in delphi)
23:45:26 [Anthony] Then prophetic characters: Cassandra, Teiresias, the Sirens, Circe, the Muses in Hesiod.... Apollo himself....
23:45:44 [Thetis] snowlily: there are historical accounts of visits to the oracle; Herodotus (5th cent BCE) has lots of instances
23:45:57 [Anthony] Oracles were very real - you might be interested to check out Delphi on the website
23:46:12 [Anthony] Hi there, jb! Welcome!
23:46:21 [snowlily] Thetis> ok, but i can't see how it can be recorded.
23:46:23 [Thetis] Kel: does anything ever turn out well?
23:46:34 [yosenl] what role did the three Fates play in all this?
23:47:01 [snowlily] people never really speak to the gods at the delphi right?
23:47:02 [yosenl] was there a story about how the Fates themselves were convinced to change the thread of someone's life?
23:47:23 [snowlily] they just speak to their priests and such.
23:47:52 [Anthony] right - always via (an) interpreter(s)
23:48:12 [Anthony] anyone remember what the Muses said to Hesiod?
23:48:28 [Thetis] snowlily: yes. the person seeking an answer poses his questions to the preist, who then take it to the priestess, who is in contact with (or possessed by) the god
23:48:30 [Kel] thetis: from what we've read it seems as after consulting oracles dont usually lead to perfectly happy endings, but then i thought that was also part of greek myth with complications...
23:48:33 [Anthony] Hi there, Tien! Welcome!
23:48:41 [snowlily] so,,, at the delphi during the pelopenisian, they said : trust in the wooden walls"
23:48:54 [tien] hi,
23:49:02 [snowlily] how are you supposed to understand what the priest or representative siad?
23:49:23 [Anthony] ('Wooden walls' is during the Persian Wars)
23:49:25 [Thetis] Kel: my own take on knowing your own fate is that fate is part of divine knowledge, and it's something that humans just can't handle...
23:49:57 [snowlily] ok, now that is interesting. how does the priestess "contact" with the god? is the god actually sitting in there? or does she then pray to the god, and the god hears her?
23:50:03 [tien] I'm working on my paper and was wondering if anyone knows who atalanta's father is
23:50:09 [snowlily] ok sorry, i meant the persian wars,
23:50:12 [Kel] thetis: that makes sense...its as if knowing it really only leads to destruction
23:50:42 [Thetis] ...no matter how well-intentioned they may be. the human and divine realms are way too different from each other for knowledge like that to ever transfer fully; it's part of the same reason that divine-moratl affairs can never work out
23:51:15 [Anthony] to add to what Rebecca said: and myth explores all sorts of people trying to figure out the scenarios that result from trying to 'handle' things
23:51:47 [Thetis] Kel: right, in much the same way that Semele got fried when Zeus exposed himself to her in his full glory
23:52:08 [Thetis] ...there are some things our puny brains just can't handle
23:52:19 [Kel] hehe
23:53:14 [Thetis] tien: you should be able to find that in Robert Graves
23:54:19 [Anthony] ..and we'll be talking tomorrow about some of Atalanta's earlier ancestors....
23:54:50 [tien] thank you, i've been looking online and in GM but no luck
23:55:04 [snowlily] did anyone read oedipus the king this weekened?
23:55:17 [snowlily] i think that book blames everything on fate
23:55:22 [Anthony] (they're not irrelevant to who Atalanta was, as always)
23:55:41 [Kel] snowlily: i did
23:55:42 [snowlily] that seems a little too boring? =P
23:55:59 [Thetis] snowlily: how can fate be blamed?
23:56:09 [snowlily] hey kel, what'd you think of it?
23:56:17 [Thetis] who is really responsible for what happens?
23:56:18 [yosenl] well there was something in the intro to Oedipus about how it was his fate, but it was still his choice to find out the truth
23:56:29 [snowlily] well i mean, it was fated that he kills his dad, marries his mom.
23:56:47 [snowlily] it was fated that the shepard let him go...etc..
23:56:49 [Anthony] Hi there, Lorca! Welcome back!
23:57:05 [Kel] snowlily: i think id read it before in high school so it was familiar, but i think its sad and incredibly ironic at the same time
23:57:09 [snowlily] but it was fated that he has that desire to find the truth
23:57:23 [kassandra] Is the Creon from Oedipus the same one from Medea?
23:57:27 [kassandra] I couldn
23:57:36 [kassandra] I couldn't find it in the Robert Graves
23:58:01 [wirm] who are those peoplewho don't have an avataron the right side of the screen?
23:58:05 [snowlily] good question kassandra.
23:58:10 [snowlily] is he?
23:58:14 [Anthony] Hi there, Tess!
23:58:24 [kassandra] Hi
23:58:27 [yosenl] snowlily, isn't that why it's a powerful tragedy
23:58:39 [yosenl] I dunno, I think he had the 'right' to choose tho of course he chose wrongly
23:58:44 [yosenl] well, 'wrongly'
23:58:59 [snowlily] i agree it is, but i just think it's boring to blame fate
23:59:07 [Thetis] kassandra and snowlily: one name, 2 separate people
23:59:40 [snowlily] oh really? so this creon is totally different?
23:59:47 [kassandra] where did you find that out?
--------- The messages that have been sent today start above ---------
00:00:20 [snowlily] did anyone else think creon totally seemed mean and cruel at the end of oedipus?
00:00:52 [yosenl] well oedipus was about to kill him or exile him
00:01:01 [Thetis] kassandra:
I'm a GSI--I know everything. 
00:01:18 [Kel] hahaha
00:01:23 [kassandra] I guess living in Thebes and Medea being in Corinth should have clued me off
00:01:32 [kassandra] Creon was justified
00:01:41 [snowlily] but creon just seemed more rational and stuff in the beginning
00:01:49 [kassandra] 20 min prior, Oedipus was ready to kill him on rumor
00:02:11 [snowlily] that's just oedipus's personality = rash and hot tempered
00:02:24 [snowlily] which is part of his downfall, i guess
00:02:37 [kassandra] I got the feeling that Oedipus was "high" on his own power
00:03:15 [snowlily] yap
00:03:21 [yosenl] yeah, it didn't seem like Oedipus was a very just king
00:03:41 [kassandra] gatta go - checking in about the impending war -
00:03:42 [Kel] i think he was insecure....
00:04:14 [Anthony] ('Kreon' is a name that means 'lord, king'.) The Corinthian Creon was apparently a descendent, as one would expect, of Sisyphus, founder of Corinth - the Theban Creon is ultimately a descendent of Cadmus
00:04:30 [snowlily] it seemed kinda cruel when he heard his "father" die and he was like "oh great, he didn't die by my hands."
00:05:41 [Thetis] snowlily: given the information that he had at the time, I think he was just relieved that he hadn't killed his "father"
00:06:16 [Anthony] Hi there, O.K! Welcome! Running on Mountain Time?
00:06:39 [snowlily] Thetis> he should be, i agree. but shouldn't he mourn for more than 5 minutes at least? the guy raised him..
00:07:02 [Kel] i agree with you snowlily....
00:07:11 [O.K.] Ooooops, I just came from a very healthy meal
00:07:34 [Thetis] snowlily: but what happens to people who kill family members?
00:07:39 [snowlily] this is a tech question. when you click on the person to send them a message, is that message private?
00:08:24 [Anthony] Check the Query/Help button bottom left for all the answers
00:09:04 [Anthony] (You need to type a slash ( / ) to enter a command and do private things
00:09:13 [snowlily] 
00:09:52 [Anthony] Going back to the Greek Myth mode of operating.... Perhaps you're being asked 'What would you do if you were Oedipus?'
00:10:08 [O.K.] I
forgot what I wanted to ask 
00:10:47 [Anthony] and then perhaps Freud would add a footnote to that: 'You ARE Oedipus, like it or not - so now what do you do?'
00:11:31 [snowlily] i commit suicide like i said i was gonna kill whoever cursed the land
00:11:44 [Thetis] anthony: to quote my mother, "nuts and bolts, nuts and bolts: you're screwed!"
00:12:13 [Kel] haha nice quotation there
00:12:35 [Anthony]
00:13:07 [snowlily] 
00:13:18 [O.K.] haha
00:13:22 [snowlily] oops. sorry
00:13:39 [snowlily] ok, this is relating oedipus to fate/curse
00:14:11 [snowlily] can anyone find an example of other ppl getting punished for "no particular reason"
00:14:46 [snowlily] in other words, why did oedipus have such ill fate? i can see why medea or helen did but not him, unless i'm missing out on something
00:14:55 [Anthony] example of 'no particular reason'?
00:15:22 [snowlily] prof, i mean - did he or his ancestors mess with some god?
00:15:39 [O.K.] well, its not like Oedipus didn't do any good in this world
00:16:20 [snowlily] he did, he got rid of the sphnix
00:17:00 [Thetis] it's time for me to move on; see you all tomorrow!
00:17:19 [Kel] bye thetis!
00:17:23 [yosenl] good night thetis
00:21:22 [Anthony] aagh - telephone line suddenly disconnected...
00:21:39 [snowlily] wb!
00:21:52 [O.K.] Yay,
00:22:17 [Anthony] I was going to say, check into Oedipus' ancestors...
00:22:52 [snowlily] oh. so there was a reason
00:23:31 [Anthony] and, to follow up on O.K.'s point, that O did do some good, Greek Myth is mostly very interested in how those moral questions pan out, isn't it?
00:25:43 [Kel] couldnt you look at how both oedipus' and paris' parents attempted to avoid the destructive fate their sons would bring, which ended up in hurting their sons anyway? i dont know...
00:25:44 [Anthony] i.e. how come this happens to a 'good' person?
00:26:16 [Anthony] Yes, Kel!
00:26:30 [snowlily] do people who try to avoid fate, get punnished more harshly?
00:27:11 [Anthony] but is what happens 'punishment'?
00:27:37 [yosenl] it was fated to happen anyway right, it wasn't any worse than it would have been
00:28:53 [snowlily] well, it wasn't fated that oedipus became blind and his mother kills herself in the original prophecy
00:29:07 [Anthony] Sorry to say, I should be heading off now. Have to think of something to say tomorrow....
00:29:09 [snowlily] i don't know.
00:29:28 [O.K.] Professor, to ask the "What if" question. What if Oedipus was the best king to ever grace the face of this earth, what might have happened.
00:29:31 [yosenl] oh ok, good night professor
00:29:34 [Kel] tiresais does mention something about oedipus leaving with some tapping stick or something like that....
00:29:37 [Anthony] but please stay on here as long as you like, everyone
00:29:52 [Kel] ok....bye professor!
00:30:07 [O.K.] Sorry, good night
00:30:27 [snowlily] bye professor
00:31:12 [Anthony] Maybe he was the very best....?? Maybe we are all Oedipus? Maybe the Creation and Succession myths have something to say about universal patterns of behavior, and of impulse?
00:31:31 [Metis] Bye professor.
00:32:04 [Anthony] Goodnight, everyone! Thanks for coming by!
00:32:06 [snowlily] kel, but wasn't that after o tried to escape his fate by running off
00:32:29 [snowlily] i meant the orig prophecy given to him when he went to see delphi
00:33:43 [Kel] ohh ok that
00:33:47 [snowlily] i'm outtie too. night everyone
00:33:54 [Kel] well then he didnt know any truth about his parents
00:34:17 [Kel] haha yeah....me too....byee
00:34:22 [yosenl] well but maybe that part was fated to happen too
00:34:28 [yosenl] hehe night ppls
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