windows blind crack version
22:58:01 [Brigit] Hellowindows blind crack version
23:01:28 [Ares] Hi Shin, anything questions, observations, etc? Prof. B. should be here shortly.windows blind crack version
23:01:56 [shin] oh i had one about supplication and xeniawindows blind crack version
23:02:05 [shin] professor said they were differentwindows blind crack version
23:02:14 [shin] i thought that my gsi said that they were almost alikewindows blind crack version
23:02:17 [Ares] OK, shoot.windows blind crack version
23:02:26 [shin] i mean xenia kind of like hospitality i guesswindows blind crack version
23:02:49 [shin] but i don' tknow i got confused with how you show supplication and ask for helpwindows blind crack version
23:02:55 [shin] and they're suppose to help you?windows blind crack version
23:03:08 [shin] maybe i'm getting the wrong i deawindows blind crack version
23:03:32 [Ares] Yes, they are definitely different. Xenia IS hospitality. It is an institutionwindows blind crack version
23:04:34 [shin] so are they suppose to be related at all?windows blind crack version
23:04:40 [Ares] which covers the responsibilities of strangers toward one another.windows blind crack version
23:05:20 [Ares] Supplication is not necessarily something which only strangerswindows blind crack version
23:06:10 [Ares] engage in. E.G. in the Iliad (if you're reading it), Thetis knows Zeus but still supplicates him.windows blind crack version
23:06:52 [Kleonai1] Ares, who are you?windows blind crack version
23:07:19 [Ares] Matthew Gonzaleswindows blind crack version
23:07:50 [Kleonai1] Thanks Matt! I can't refer to you as Ares all evening!windows blind crack version
23:07:52 [pegasus] hellowindows blind crack version
23:08:20 [Kleonai1] Hi pegasus, great name!windows blind crack version
23:08:28 [pegasus] thanks ^_^windows blind crack version
23:08:55 [delldude] wattup foolswindows blind crack version
23:09:25 [Kleonai1] So what shall we all talk about?windows blind crack version
23:09:26 [AnthonyB] Good evening everyone - sorry to be running late!windows blind crack version
23:09:37 [Ares] Supplication suggests a much more abject position on the point of the petitioner, whereas xenia is expected, and to some extent there is the appearance of equality.windows blind crack version
23:09:44 [Kleonai1] Any ideas on the questions thrown out at the end of last class?windows blind crack version
23:09:51 [delldude] can someone give a summary of where we should be in the classwindows blind crack version
23:10:25 [Ares] Jeannie, you wanna take that?windows blind crack version
23:10:34 [tien] I think we're wrapping up on the Odyssey and moving on to heroeswindows blind crack version
23:10:48 [Kleonai1] Finishing reading the Odyssey, reading the Agamemnonwindows blind crack version
23:10:58 [AnthonyB] Matthew? Jeannie? Rebecca? 'Where should we be in the class?....'windows blind crack version
23:11:31 [delldude] what is agamemnonwindows blind crack version
23:11:33 [Kleonai1] Figuring out "why pigs"?windows blind crack version
23:11:34 [delldude] is that a novelwindows blind crack version
23:11:55 [Kleonai1] The Agamemnon is the first play in the Oresteia, a trilogy of plays by Aeschyluswindows blind crack version
23:12:02 [Ares] Yes, I have told my sections to be finished with the Od. by this week and begin Agamemnon and Iphigeneiawindows blind crack version
23:12:07 [delldude] why pigs?windows blind crack version
23:12:09 [Thetis] delldude, it's a play by Aeschyluswindows blind crack version
23:12:22 [dl84] I thought the pigs symbolized how they would eat the cows of helioswindows blind crack version
23:12:33 [dl84] like the pigs symbolized their greed on the islandwindows blind crack version
23:13:15 [Kleonai1] Interesting! We use pigs to symbolize greed; did the Greeks?windows blind crack version
23:13:49 [dl84] interesting questionwindows blind crack version
23:13:56 [dl84] but they were definately subordinatewindows blind crack version
23:14:03 [Ares] What about the other animals on Circe's island, were all the people charmed by her "pigs?"windows blind crack version
23:14:06 [tien] did circe only turn men or anyone into pigswindows blind crack version
23:14:10 [dl84] otherwise, she would have turned them into a more viscious animalwindows blind crack version
23:14:46 [dl84] i thought circe turned men into pigs, and then specifically odysseus's men into pigswindows blind crack version
23:14:49 [Kleonai1] Tien - good question. The whole thing won't work with womenwindows blind crack version
23:14:55 [Thetis] tien, why would anyone but men come to her island?windows blind crack version
23:15:02 [dl84] wait, men into animals, and then odysseus's men into pigswindows blind crack version
23:15:02 [tien] but how come just menwindows blind crack version
23:15:23 [tien] truewindows blind crack version
23:15:31 [Kleonai1] What is the whole episode on Circe's island about, anyone?windows blind crack version
23:15:39 [Ares] Tien, were there any women with Od?windows blind crack version
23:16:21 [tien] no, but the way that circe is described it made her seem like a man haterwindows blind crack version
23:16:35 [Thetis] andm tien, as we read more, keep in mind what kind of women actually do go out on adventures...windows blind crack version
23:17:23 [Thetis] well, if you were a woman all by yuourself, and strange men came to your house, what would you do?windows blind crack version
23:17:57 [dl84] man hater may be a little strong tienwindows blind crack version
23:18:05 [tien] but if I was a godess, I'd be a bit more powerful to begin withwindows blind crack version
23:18:40 [Kleonai1] Why does Odysseus leave Circe, tien?windows blind crack version
23:18:45 [AnthonyB] Odysseus and men ended up spending a year there - would they have done that with a man-hater?...windows blind crack version
23:19:00 [Thetis] in what ways, specifically, does Circe violate the code of hospitality?windows blind crack version
23:19:17 [dl84] instead of offering them food and rest,windows blind crack version
23:19:26 [dl84] she offers them food and poisonwindows blind crack version
23:19:42 [tien] no, I think you're misunderstanding me I know she allows him to leave and even swears on itwindows blind crack version
23:20:00 [Kleonai1] and turns them into food!windows blind crack version
23:20:17 [AnthonyB] why does Od. become Circe's lover? and why does Circe want to seduce him?windows blind crack version
23:20:35 [Kleonai1] Tien - no, I meant that O doesn't leave C until his men remind him that they have to go - he is pretty powerful at seduction in my bookwindows blind crack version
23:20:50 [Kleonai1] oops - I meant shewindows blind crack version
23:21:21 [AnthonyB] but maybe you're right about the 'he' too, Jeannie??windows blind crack version
23:21:28 [tien] is there a history behind why she lives on this island?windows blind crack version
23:21:38 [Kleonai1] oh, they're all so seductive!windows blind crack version
23:21:46 [NChild] Doesn't Odysseus become her lover because Hermes tells him not to deny her?windows blind crack version
23:22:27 [Kleonai1] NChild - what else specifically does H tell O to do?windows blind crack version
23:22:46 [Thetis] tien: could Circe survive in normal society?windows blind crack version
23:23:26 [NChild] He tells him to draw his sword as though to "run her through", and then to bed with her if he wants his men releasedwindows blind crack version
23:23:43 [NChild] And of course to have Circe swear an oath not to harm himwindows blind crack version
23:23:59 [Kleonai1] Yes! The sword symbolism hasn't changed much over the ageswindows blind crack version
23:24:56 [Kleonai1] ...so I guess "he" is seductive, toowindows blind crack version
23:25:21 [AnthonyB] Jeannie asked earlier, why does O leave C...windows blind crack version
23:26:12 [NChild] Well, I think part of it is that it is Odysseus' fate to return homewindows blind crack version
23:27:00 [Thetis] Yeah, why does he? he's so eager to get away from kalypso, but he basically forgets about Ithaca when he's with C.windows blind crack version
23:27:36 [Ares] Who reminds him of home?windows blind crack version
23:27:51 [Kleonai1] Thetis, Circe's got more countermoves than Kwindows blind crack version
23:27:54 [NChild] Perhaps its also to do with the magic of Circe. It seems she is more powerful than Calypsowindows blind crack version
23:27:55 [AnthonyB] Anyone here like to own up (or be the devil's advocate for it) that they *would* have stayed with Circe, or Calypso, or Nausicaa?windows blind crack version
23:28:08 [NChild] His comrades remind his it is time to return homwwindows blind crack version
23:28:08 [lorca] of coursewindows blind crack version
23:28:46 [crumb] how come odysseus doesnt get punished for killing all the suitors?windows blind crack version
23:28:50 [Kleonai1] I'd have brought them all back to Ithaka with mewindows blind crack version
23:29:00 [wilson_bp] Athena interfereswindows blind crack version
23:29:03 [lorca] the more the merrierwindows blind crack version
23:29:08 [tien] He claims that his crew hinders his journey but they seem to help him in this casewindows blind crack version
23:29:20 [Thetis] Jeannie: Circe has more brains to go with her beauty?windows blind crack version
23:29:24 [AnthonyB] lorca? [you commented 'of course' - did that mean you would have stayed?]windows blind crack version
23:29:45 [NChild] I probably would have, especially after 20 yearswindows blind crack version
23:29:52 [tien] Maybe because the suitors violated the code of hospitality first?windows blind crack version
23:30:09 [lorca] i honestly would not have stayed, but i can understand given the circumstances why someone wouldwindows blind crack version
23:30:11 [wilson_bp] But Odysseus wouldn't have had to meet Circe if not for his crewwindows blind crack version
23:30:15 [Kleonai1] Thetis: perhaps just more "wiles"windows blind crack version
23:30:19 [Thetis] if I were oO I would have stayed with Nausikaawindows blind crack version
23:30:38 [NChild] But at the same time, Orestes kills Aegithus and Clytemnestra for killing Agamemnon, and he has to go to trial to determine if he was rightwindows blind crack version
23:30:45 [Heptamtimi] Hellowindows blind crack version
23:30:48 [AnthonyB] Go on, Rebecca - run with it....windows blind crack version
23:30:52 [NChild] So why shouldnt Odysseus have to face the same consequences?windows blind crack version
23:30:55 [Heptamtimi] the email reminder was a big helpwindows blind crack version
23:31:02 [Ares] I'm staying outta this one...windows blind crack version
23:31:27 [Kleonai1] Thetis - but isn't N just P younger?windows blind crack version
23:31:28 [AnthonyB] Hi, Heptamtimi! Glad you came!windows blind crack version
23:31:50 [Heptamtimi] (we are discussing social penalties for murder among the Greeks in Odysseus' period?)windows blind crack version
23:32:13 [Heptamtimi] (Pepis Hepteptamtiminopipolous)windows blind crack version
23:32:18 [Thetis] Nausikaa is the closest thing he's had to home sicne he left Ithaka; i would have taken it and said, well, it's not quite there, but it's close enough, and I can be happy here."windows blind crack version
23:32:24 [AnthonyB] ....and desert islands....windows blind crack version
23:32:32 [NChild] Well crumb asked why Odysseus didnt get punished for killing the suitorswindows blind crack version
23:32:33 [AnthonyB] Castawaywindows blind crack version
23:32:35 [tien] O is more favored I guesswindows blind crack version
23:32:41 [wilson_bp] Orestes kieed his mother, and matricide is a serious offence?windows blind crack version
23:32:44 [Thetis] Jeannie: well, yes, that's really hte point. He can have almost everything he had before.windows blind crack version
23:33:04 [crumb] "more favored"... thats terriblewindows blind crack version
23:33:11 [Kleonai1] Thetis - after I'd kissed off Kalypso, I think I'd be all or nothingwindows blind crack version
23:33:22 [crumb] more and more i learn about oddysseus.. the more i dislike himwindows blind crack version
23:33:32 [Heptamtimi] what is the deal with INO? I did not see her as a real big feminine factor in dysseus' life.windows blind crack version
23:33:36 [crumb] before i read the book he seemed like such a great hero and legendwindows blind crack version
23:33:42 [Ginevra] it seems as though they have civil goverment, hte families of the men Odysseus killed were going to take justice into thier own hands until Athena settled itwindows blind crack version
23:33:43 [tien] well, Zues and Anthene had his backwindows blind crack version
23:33:51 [crumb] i didnt thing INO was that important eitherwindows blind crack version
23:34:05 [tien] plus throughout all the voyages he becomes a really well knownwindows blind crack version
23:34:07 [NChild] Well, I think its hard not to judge him by our value system, but we have to remember that the Greeks had a completely different value systemwindows blind crack version
23:34:13 [lorca] it was a bloody cycle of retributory acts, someone had to end itwindows blind crack version
23:34:16 [Kel] i know what you mean crumb...windows blind crack version
23:34:21 [Heptamtimi] she would have been just as good a "male" river god,windows blind crack version
23:34:26 [crumb] it doesnt make sense that homer would make zeus and anthena would be ok with his mass murderwindows blind crack version
23:34:27 [Brigit] Well without Ino what would have happened to Od?windows blind crack version
23:34:37 [crumb] when he mentions agamennon's death somany timeswindows blind crack version
23:34:46 [Heptamtimi] exceptfor her reputation as a protector as is Athena, for young warriorswindows blind crack version
23:35:13 [wilson_bp] I guess the guests deserved to die?windows blind crack version
23:35:20 [Heptamtimi] He would have had worse odds to contend withwindows blind crack version
23:35:32 [Ares] RE Od/Orestes is this really a fair parallel to draw. Are the victims of murder really socially equivalent?windows blind crack version
23:35:38 [crumb] well... without everyone else Od meets... wat would have happened to Od?windows blind crack version
23:35:41 [Thetis] Nicole: but wait until we get to "Trojan Women" and other plays of Euripides: he doesn't always have fans.windows blind crack version
23:35:50 [ajsthind] this is interesting how we talk about murder in retribution as being so horrid, yet we still have that same valuewindows blind crack version
23:35:52 [Ginevra] What's up with the afterlife, it seems pretty horrible, not at all like our notion of Heavenwindows blind crack version
23:35:54 [Heptamtimi] btw, the clothes Calypso gave him were just as immortal as INO's scarfwindows blind crack version
23:36:17 [Ares] Is there something that Klytemnestra is that the suitors are not?windows blind crack version
23:36:24 [Heptamtimi] so INO wasn't too necessarywindows blind crack version
23:36:36 [Heptamtimi] trecherywindows blind crack version
23:36:43 [lorca] Definitely, the notion of the underworld very gruesome so much that Achilles laments ruling the deadwindows blind crack version
23:36:56 [Ares] Socially, speaking.windows blind crack version
23:37:03 [crumb] well... i think INO is just as important as any other character... but it seems in leacture she seems sooooo much more impoirtantwindows blind crack version
23:37:13 [Heptamtimi] the suitors were a cultural force and Klytamnestra was trechery from a loved and trustedonewindows blind crack version
23:37:15 [NChild] Well, from my stand point, Clytemnestra was only avenging the slaughter of her first born childwindows blind crack version
23:37:19 [dl84] the underworld didn't seem so badwindows blind crack version
23:37:26 [lorca] well i think it's because many times she's underestimatedwindows blind crack version
23:37:29 [Ginevra] Yeah it seems as if some of them had cruel and unusual punishmentwindows blind crack version
23:37:37 [wilson_bp] but her first born child didn't diewindows blind crack version
23:37:38 [dl84] and to the greeks, heaven was more reserved for the godswindows blind crack version
23:37:49 [AnthonyB] Ares, she's more effective??? (Too much drinking among the suitors for them to be much good wielding an axe...)windows blind crack version
23:37:54 [Heptamtimi] the underworld parallels valhellawindows blind crack version
23:37:57 [NChild] How would u feel if your spouse killed your daughter and then came home ten years later with a concubine that he declares is more fair than his own wife?windows blind crack version
23:38:00 [Kel] no, weren't the suitors treacherous by plotting to kill telemachos heptamtimi?windows blind crack version
23:38:11 [Ginevra] So even if you were a great warrior, the life now was all you hadwindows blind crack version
23:38:14 [Brigit] Not so much more important but, keep in mind what the reference to Ino would have meant to the listeners.windows blind crack version
23:38:24 [Heptamtimi] with a touch of immortal suffering for those helpless who have done wrong to the godswindows blind crack version
23:38:40 [Thetis] Nicole: it was hardly unexpected that A. would come home with multiple women and children.windows blind crack version
23:38:47 [AnthonyB] and did you know that Ag killed Clytemnestra's first husband and child....?windows blind crack version
23:39:12 [Heptamtimi] ah, a suppliment to the constant mentioning of Athenewindows blind crack version
23:39:13 [Ares] More basic. I'm talking about realtions between charaters, e.g. family, vs. xenos in this case?windows blind crack version
23:39:26 [Heptamtimi] and a whole story to herselfwindows blind crack version
23:40:01 [AnthonyB] (worth checking out the 'wooing' of Clytemnestra.... compare the wooing of Helen.... the wooing of Nausicaa...[even]..windows blind crack version
23:40:04 [Ares] Anthony, I thought that Aesh. was the first, as far as we know, to make Ag. kill Iph.?windows blind crack version
23:40:24 [wilson_bp] would it be wrong to say that most of the main characters have a lineage which can be traced somehow to a god?windows blind crack version
23:40:39 [AnthonyB] (and, of course, the wooing of Helen, and of Penelope)windows blind crack version
23:41:10 [Ginevra] no, Wilson, that seems to be right, probably why thier story is being toldwindows blind crack version
23:41:13 [Kleonai1] so shall we add the wooing of Circe?windows blind crack version
23:41:36 [Thetis] wilson_bp: keep in mind that we're in the age of heroes, when men and gods talk to each other on a regular basis. but you're correct in noticing that an awful lot of them are divinely descended.windows blind crack version
23:41:55 [NChild] prof bulloch, where might those references be located?windows blind crack version
23:42:05 [Heptamtimi] seed of such and such divinitywindows blind crack version
23:42:24 [Kleonai1] NChild - use your Robert Graveswindows blind crack version
23:42:36 [NChild] thankswindows blind crack version
23:43:00 [AnthonyB] Matt, the sacrifice of Iph is already in the Kypria, so it was clearly part of the oral epic tradition - just not in Homer. And Hesiod had it too, in the Ehoaiai...windows blind crack version
23:43:25 [Ares] Thanks...windows blind crack version
23:44:15 [Ginevra] I was thinking about how Prof. Bulloch was saying that Odysseus manages to sleep with every woman he meets, I think it's considered o.k. because the act of lovemaking is separate from actual love in this instance. at the end we see how much he really loves his wife and how those other women meantwindows blind crack version
23:44:19 [Kleonai1] Any good stories about Agamemnon out there?windows blind crack version
23:44:19 [base1man] can you tell me why they call odysseus the seed of zeus?windows blind crack version
23:44:25 [Ginevra] nothibng to himwindows blind crack version
23:44:52 [Thetis] Ginevra: does he really sleep with every woman he meets?windows blind crack version
23:45:15 [Cluelezzz1] not the princess of the Phaikanswindows blind crack version
23:45:32 [Kleonai1] Or does he only meet women he needs to sleep with?windows blind crack version
23:45:35 [Ginevra] Well he doesn't sleep with the Princesswindows blind crack version
23:45:37 [Thetis] moreover, he is genulinely attracted to Cirtce, and forgets, supposedly, all about home and Penelope.windows blind crack version
23:45:46 [NChild] Wow. I knew about Thyestes and Atreus, but I wasn't aware the role Clytemnestra playedwindows blind crack version
23:45:46 [Ares] All kings are the seed of Zeus, ideologically speaking...They derive their legitimacy from him.windows blind crack version
23:46:13 [base1man] ok thankswindows blind crack version
23:46:24 [Ginevra] really, he does forget about home, do you say that because he stayed there so long?windows blind crack version
23:46:55 [Ares] In the Iliad, the sceptre Ag. wields was given to A's ancestors by Zeus (I think)windows blind crack version
23:47:03 [Thetis] Ginevra: what compels him to leave Circe?windows blind crack version
23:47:05 [crumb] ginevra: didn't his friend remind him to go hom?windows blind crack version
23:47:23 [Thetis] matt: yopu're right.windows blind crack version
23:47:30 [Kleonai1] Ares - yup - there's a long description of it being handed downwindows blind crack version
23:48:11 [Thetis] Ginevra: yes--he has to be reminded by his crew. what does that say, then?windows blind crack version
23:48:12 [Ginevra] gosh, good questions, i hae to find that passage and read it overwindows blind crack version
23:48:22 [AnthonyB] [Milan Kundera - whom I've been reading recently (sorry to repeat myself, guys) points out that Od spent more time with Calypso (7 years) than he had probably had with Penelope....windows blind crack version
23:49:15 [Kleonai1] But is it the woman or what she represents that's important?windows blind crack version
23:49:26 [lorca] the representationwindows blind crack version
23:49:36 [AnthonyB] Matt's right - that sceptre was important: it was even preserved (the real thing) in a town called Coroneia (I think) and received carfeful ritual attention every day - a Real Relic!windows blind crack version
23:50:19 [Thetis] personally, I'd love to read book 25 of the Odyssey: O and P after the reunion. Was home life really what he remembered, or was it more desireable because he didn't have it?windows blind crack version
23:50:22 [Ares] Yes, I think it was called 'doru' - 'spear'windows blind crack version
23:50:23 [Kleonai1] Why Coroneia?windows blind crack version
23:50:56 [wilson_bp] perhaps it was more desirable because of the obstacles which he had to face on his voyage back?windows blind crack version
23:51:06 [e_berger] Is there no taboo of incest in ancient greece?windows blind crack version
23:51:20 [Kleonai1] Of course there is!windows blind crack version
23:51:38 [Ares] Did one of the Epigoni have it?windows blind crack version
23:51:41 [AnthonyB] I've often wondered that too, Jeannie. these things travel.... (there's a notorious relic in Italy I'll tell you about sometime)windows blind crack version
23:51:46 [Thetis] but wouldn't home be ,well, boring after all that?windows blind crack version
23:51:53 [Anna] Is Laertes Odysseus' real father?windows blind crack version
23:52:06 [Kleonai1] Well, he did leave again soon, didn't he?windows blind crack version
23:52:40 [AnthonyB] Yes, I think Matt's right - though as I recall, interestingly enough we're not actually told the descent of the sceptre after it gets to Agwindows blind crack version
23:52:41 [e_berger] hera is zeus's sister, and Aiolos's married his six daughters with his six sisterswindows blind crack version
23:52:43 [Ares] Anna, Why do you ask?windows blind crack version
23:52:52 [e_berger] sonswindows blind crack version
23:53:45 [Kleonai1] Anna - isn't it curious that Laertes is the last to know of O's return, and then he's off in squalor somewhere?windows blind crack version
23:53:49 [AnthonyB] good question, Anna. there's a rumor that his mother may have been seduced by another relative, out of revenge...windows blind crack version
23:53:58 [Thetis] e_berger: there is ahuge taboo on incest among humans in Greece, both mythically and really.windows blind crack version
23:54:40 [Ares] Yes, I've honestly wondered about that myself. Perhapd one of my more enlightened colleagues could enlighten us...?windows blind crack version
23:54:49 [Thetis] but think about the pairings between the gods more in terms of what they represent, than along any lines of blood/ichor/whateverwindows blind crack version
23:54:58 [Anna] In Robert Graves I thought he mentions that Laertes might not be O's father?windows blind crack version
23:55:17 [Kel] is there a certain reason the suitors want penelope other than because she's beautiful? the kingship doesnt go through the matrilinear line, right?windows blind crack version
23:55:35 [Kleonai1] Anna - remember that there are always versions, and back stories...windows blind crack version
23:55:43 [AnthonyB] (not many options available, also, in the early stages of generation)windows blind crack version
23:56:09 [Ares] sorry to leave, but I must "put my hand to the good things" on my table...windows blind crack version
23:56:35 [Thetis] bon appetit, mattwindows blind crack version
23:56:36 [Kleonai1] Bye Mattwindows blind crack version
23:57:04 [AnthonyB] Kel, it's murky - I think the suitors probably reckoned that a good combination of 'force' and alliances on the male side might be able to make it if paired with Penelope's authoritywindows blind crack version
23:57:15 [AnthonyB] thanks for coming, Mattwindows blind crack version
23:58:13 [AnthonyB] we're used to Succession being very well thought through, here in the US, or in other European countries - but in many societies it's not at all clear-cutwindows blind crack version
23:58:33 [lorca] that's true, peaceful transitions of power toowindows blind crack version
23:59:22 [wilson_bp] Are there examples of a hero who's ancestors aren't anyone important?windows blind crack version
--------- The messages that have been sent today start above ---------windows blind crack version
00:00:03 [AnthonyB] think of China, Russia, for example - great countries with a very venerable past, but the institutions of succession quite muddywindows blind crack version
00:00:04 [Kleonai1] Wlison - yeswindows blind crack version
00:01:30 [Thetis] what are they, Jeannie?windows blind crack version
00:01:33 [Kleonai1] Some characters became heroes simply because something bad happened to them and they came to a bad endwindows blind crack version
00:01:38 [Kel] yeah thats truewindows blind crack version
00:01:46 [Thetis] I keep on drawing blanks...windows blind crack version
00:02:01 [AnthonyB] Anna - going back to your question about Od.' father: you might find it interesting to research the details therewindows blind crack version
00:02:03 [Kleonai1] Thetis - what about the baby Opheltes? In some versions, his father is just the local priestwindows blind crack version
00:02:38 [Kleonai1] ...when the 7 Against Thebes kill him by mistake, they think this is a bad omen, so start a ritual in his honorwindows blind crack version
00:02:41 [Kel] uh, this is unrelated to classics, but is this chat slow on other people's computers or is it just me?windows blind crack version
00:03:19 [wilson_bp] I meant heroes as in go out and do heroic stuff...windows blind crack version
00:03:42 [Anna] Any suggestions where to start?windows blind crack version
00:03:44 [AnthonyB] kel it varies - chatrooms are very memory intensivewindows blind crack version
00:03:47 [Kleonai1] Wilson - it all depends on what you think the definition of a hero iswindows blind crack version
00:04:01 [Thetis] wilson: define "heroic"windows blind crack version
00:04:13 [wilson_bp] I guess I'm thinking about inherited characteristicswindows blind crack version
00:04:26 [Kel] i think it also doesn't help that i have dial up, too...windows blind crack version
00:04:27 [Thetis] Kleonai1> great minds....windows blind crack version
00:04:35 [Kleonai1] The strict definition of a hero to the Greeks was either someone who lived in the heroic age, or someone who received cult after death. Doesn't mean you had to do anything heroic.windows blind crack version
00:05:00 [AnthonyB] Wilson, don't forget that many heroes are 'local': i.e. they may not be renowned at the national level, but within their region they are major founding figures - and that can make a hero just as much as Great Deedswindows blind crack version
00:05:01 [Kleonai1] There is even one who all he did in life was kill a bunch of kidswindows blind crack version
00:05:48 [wilson_bp] I suppose my definition of a hero are those who went out on a great quest.windows blind crack version
00:05:50 [Thetis] don't forget about heroines, too, especially those that get a cult because they jump off a cliff...windows blind crack version
00:06:06 [AnthonyB] and some just float around in boxes and get washed up somewherewindows blind crack version
00:06:29 [Thetis] wilson: questing is an important part of ancient greek heroism, but not the only criterionwindows blind crack version
00:06:34 [lorca] I think it's party the Odyssey's legacy that we have that concrete impression of "hero"windows blind crack version
00:06:37 [Kleonai1] EVen I could do that!windows blind crack version
00:06:44 [lorca] *partlywindows blind crack version
00:07:11 [wilson_bp] I guess I'm thinking that Odysseus was a great Greek because of his cunning.windows blind crack version
00:07:11 [Thetis] Jeannie: the jumping, pr the being washed up in boxes?!windows blind crack version
00:07:43 [wilson_bp] but his cunning is "inherited" from his great grandfather, Hermewindows blind crack version
00:07:51 [Kleonai1] Thetis - I was thinking of being washed up in boxes, but sometimes the jumping off a cliff doesn't look too bad, eitherwindows blind crack version
00:07:58 [Thetis] wilson: is it?windows blind crack version
00:08:14 [AnthonyB] yeah - I could just about manage the box, but not leaping from great cliff-heightswindows blind crack version
00:08:50 [AnthonyB] I think Jeannie would make a much better hero than I wouldwindows blind crack version
00:09:01 [Thetis] the claustrophobic one sez: gimme a cliff!windows blind crack version
00:09:21 [Kleonai1] Ah, that's why cliff-jumping is more the province of womenwindows blind crack version
00:09:57 [Thetis] ...lovers of pathos as we are...windows blind crack version
00:10:07 [Kleonai1] Anthony - fortunately the Greeks had so many different kinds of heroeswindows blind crack version
00:10:58 [Thetis] maybe we should take a poll at the end of the class to see who the favorites arewindows blind crack version
00:11:03 [AnthonyB] now there's an interesting thought: why is it that it's almost always women who are placed at great heights, whether it's on the tips of promontories, or acropoleis, or isolated at the top of towers?windows blind crack version
00:11:13 [Kleonai1] ...we could all qualify under some category or another!windows blind crack version
00:11:51 [AnthonyB] maybe we should do a weekly 'Hermes Poll' and see how popularity varies over the term....windows blind crack version
00:12:09 [Thetis] Anthony: that *is* a good question. Isolating the varialbe, dangerous sex?windows blind crack version
00:12:11 [Kleonai1] Well, there are some exceptions - Theseus' father jumpswindows blind crack version
00:12:36 [lorca] yeah especially before and after reading Medeawindows blind crack version
00:12:44 [AnthonyB] and - running in the family - Hippolytus is forced to go that waywindows blind crack version
00:12:52 [Kleonai1] "Put her on a pedestal and she will fall"windows blind crack version
00:13:16 [Thetis] lorca: windows blind crack version
00:13:17 [AnthonyB] got to contain those women - keep Pandora in her box....windows blind crack version
00:13:33 [AnthonyB] then there's Myrsiluswindows blind crack version
00:14:03 [Thetis] but he was pushedwindows blind crack version
00:14:03 [Kleonai1] But doesn't he get thrown?windows blind crack version
00:14:19 [AnthonyB] It usually turns out they are mothers of Famous Sons, of coursewindows blind crack version
00:14:37 [AnthonyB] details, details....windows blind crack version
00:15:04 [Thetis] which is why they're dangerouswindows blind crack version
00:15:11 [AnthonyB] some volunteer, others are chosenwindows blind crack version
00:15:12 [Kleonai1] aren't there a number of virgin jumpers?windows blind crack version
00:15:37 [AnthonyB] virgin jumpers are usually three, aren't they?windows blind crack version
00:16:00 [Kleonai1] Speaking of which, Anthony - are you going to do the Arrephoria this year?windows blind crack version
00:16:08 [Kleonai1] oops - wrong spellingwindows blind crack version
00:16:18 [AnthonyB] now that's where the Od. had some counter-cultural originality: Od.' women were all dangerous in themselveswindows blind crack version
00:17:12 [AnthonyB] Yes - in a couple of weeks, with Athena (after Ares) as a link with Communitywindows blind crack version
00:17:16 [Thetis] not all of them: Nausikaa?windows blind crack version
00:17:39 [Kleonai1] Thetis - she is the most dangerous - she tempted even you!windows blind crack version
00:18:08 [AnthonyB] Sorry, everyone - we've rather been rattling on. Sorry if it sounds like code. The Arrhephoria is basically about kinky sexwindows blind crack version
00:18:32 [Kleonai1] that's probably why they are a favorite of minewindows blind crack version
00:18:45 [Kel] hahawindows blind crack version
00:18:45 [Thetis] Anthony: 
<guffaw>windows blind crack version
00:18:59 [AnthonyB] worth waiting forwindows blind crack version
00:19:35 [delldude] whoa kinky sex?? wth??windows blind crack version
00:19:41 [Thetis] Jeannie: you're right!windows blind crack version
00:19:51 [Thetis] (about N.)windows blind crack version
00:19:55 [Kleonai1] delldude - have you been out there all this time?windows blind crack version
00:19:59 [lorca] is that where athena wiped semen off of herself?windows blind crack version
00:20:12 [delldude] fdwindows blind crack version
00:20:14 [AnthonyB] warmwindows blind crack version
00:20:16 [delldude] yeah im herewindows blind crack version
00:20:18 [Thetis] you'll just have to pay attnetion very closely for the next two weeks, delldude!windows blind crack version
00:20:35 [delldude] for what?windows blind crack version
00:21:36 [delldude] what are you talking about theticwindows blind crack version
00:21:38 [delldude] thetiswindows blind crack version
00:21:59 [Kleonai1] My goodness, it is getting late (I can usually tell when the chat turns to kinky sex) - I'll have to go soonwindows blind crack version
00:22:08 [AnthonyB] OK - time to go and try to invent something for tomorrow....windows blind crack version
00:22:42 [AnthonyB] this chatroom will stay open 24/7, thoughwindows blind crack version
00:23:03 [AnthonyB] Thanks for coming, everyone. See you all tomorrow!windows blind crack version
00:23:16 [Kleonai1] Bye Anthony!windows blind crack version
00:23:17 [AnthonyB] Stay on as long as you want.windows blind crack version
00:23:28 [delldude] see ya tony....peace outwindows blind crack version
00:23:43 [Kleonai1] Thetis - will you be safe left here alone?windows blind crack version
00:23:47 [Kel] byewindows blind crack version
00:24:13 [lorca] uale!windows blind crack version
00:24:45 [Kleonai1] Well, good night everyone!windows blind crack version
00:24:49 [delldude] so hows the class goin for everyone so farwindows blind crack version
00:24:57 [delldude] everyone keeping up with the reading?windows blind crack version
00:25:32 [Kel] trying to! i have a lot for american studies too...windows blind crack version
00:25:50 [delldude] do you find the reading enjoyable or a bit bland?windows blind crack version
00:26:45 [Kel] this class' reading is cool...reading for some other classes arent quite so fun...windows blind crack version
00:27:06 [Kel] what about uwindows blind crack version
00:27:17 [delldude] alright kel, we should get together to study sometimewindows blind crack version
00:27:21 [delldude] whaddaya saywindows blind crack version
00:27:55 [Kel] haha if you wannawindows blind crack version
00:28:10 [Kel] wat other classes are u taking?windows blind crack version
00:28:16 [delldude] no, i'm serious....i'm kinda lostwindows blind crack version
00:28:49 [delldude] a probability classwindows blind crack version
00:29:10 [delldude] Kel> hey you on AIM?windows blind crack version
00:29:45 [Kel] yupwindows blind crack version
00:29:55 [delldude] sn?windows blind crack version
00:30:12 [Kel] sn is emprspannywindows blind crack version
00:32:14 [Kel] it would actually be a lot faster for me to talk on AIM because this chat is really slow for me...windows blind crack version