[Note: times are recorded EST, not PST.]
Downloads do tibia 7.5Please read from the top of the page down.
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22:53:42 [neil] hey
22:53:47 [neil] is there a chat today?
22:54:07 [rhapsody] yes, i think there is supposed to be one at 8pm
22:54:13 [rhapsody] or so i have heard...
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22:58:37 [iceman] what up party people
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23:03:27 [AnthonyB] Hi there, everyone! Welcome!
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23:03:55 [Eurydice] Hello hello
23:04:08 Terpsichor enters this room
23:05:40 [lanlan] hello
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23:06:12 [iceman] getting crowded in here!!
23:06:14 [Eurydice] Hmm...I kind of feel like I should drop a pin or something.
23:06:36 [iceman] drop a golden apple
23:06:48 [Terpsichor] Yeah, someone pick a topic and let's go!
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23:07:24 [AnthonyB] Hi there, Jamie, Terpsichor, Ben, Stratos, Mardebarta! Welcome!
23:07:46 [Terpsichor] Good evening professor!
23:07:55 [AnthonyB] Yes, drop and apple, someone - with a fun or humorous message, and then a question on it...
23:07:55 [JamieMatts] Hello
23:08:22 [AnthonyB] Someone start at random - Open Forum this evening.
23:08:37 [Eurydice] *drops a golden apple marked "The midterm answers are inside"*
23:08:38 [Terpsichor] Ok I have a humerous one, but I hope I don't break the polite rule
23:08:56 [AnthonyB] Go ahead....
23:09:04 [iceman] uh oh
23:09:31 [Terpsichor] Judging by the way Ouranos keeps his kids in Gaia, I think he found an herb that works like viagra....I bet they called it "HOLY MOLY!"
23:09:35 bdeal enters this room
23:09:56 [AnthonyB] Hmmm... I wonder what a Greek apple with that question on the outside would actually have on the inside....? there's always a catch....
23:10:06 [bdeal] HEY ALLLL
23:10:11 [AnthonyB] Hi there, bdeal! Welcome!
23:10:34 [iceman] terpsichor coming strong early
23:10:36 [Terpsichor] remember the herb moly from Hermes in the Odyessey to protect Odysseus
23:10:40 [Eurydice] Oi, that's pretty bad, Terpsichor, but definitely A for effort.
23:10:45 [bdeal] ok whats the tpoic tonite????
23:10:46 [AnthonyB] Has everyone taken a look at the Exams web-page?
23:10:59 [iceman] i did
23:11:03 [Eurydice] I have.
23:11:11 [bdeal] hey prof whats the command to get the whole chat again???
23:11:20 [bdeal] i have
23:11:25 [Eurydice] All we need is a bluebook, pen and a basic set of brains, right?
23:11:31 [AnthonyB] Any real questions or issues that need clearing up? from those that have looked at the page already, that is.
23:11:32 [iceman] what about u terpsichor?
23:12:08 [Terpsichor] Oh, I have some trivia I found out today
23:12:18 [Terpsichor] not about the exam
23:12:29 [iceman] eurydice-- brains are optional
23:13:01 [AnthonyB] If you'd like to have the whole text available in the scroll of your browser type in the following: /show 600 (or a largish number - that's the number of lines to keep in the scroll). That's a slash + word 'show' plus space plus a number
23:13:12 [Eurydice] Oh, good. I guess I can call off that arm wrestling contest with Igor then.
23:14:04 [Terpsichor] You know the famous authors Charlotte and Emily Bronte? Well, their last name was something boring and there father took the name Bronte- it is greek fro lightening, and we find it for one of the cyclops in theogony
23:14:07 [AnthonyB] Go ahead with your trivia...
23:14:31 [AnthonyB] Yes - Brontes...
23:14:42 [Eurydice] Yup, like the whole brontosaurus/"thunder lizard" thing.
23:14:56 [Terpsichor] and those cyclops gave Zeus his lightening and thunder
23:15:27 [AnthonyB] the cyclopes in the cosmogony are rather like the work-horses, the proletariat, if you will....
23:15:59 [AnthonyB] and the Hundred-Handers are the troops, the fighting forces...
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23:18:04 [AnthonyB] We didn't spend too much time on the detail of the 'Theogony', beyond the Titans and the Olympians, but it really is a very rich and well-thought-out view of how the world comes into being, and what sort of world it is, too
23:18:22 [AnthonyB] Hi there, Pheonix, Jessica! Welcome!
23:18:39 [phoenix] hello
23:18:39 [Terpsichor] The Bronte family's last name was originally: Brunty- thank heaven he changed it, how could you write romantic and gothic novels with the name Brunty!
23:19:13 [jhandcock] thanks and hello
23:19:39 [Terpsichor] but I was wrong, it doesn't mean lightening, it means thunder
23:20:20 [AnthonyB] One of the things I'd like to stress, in the context of reading the Theogony, is that when we were still with the Odyssey, for quite a long stretch (and rightfully so)....
23:20:54 [Terpsichor] Yes, Theogony is great, see I am the muse of dance tonight, but the "e" is missing in my name
23:21:03 [AnthonyB] ...it might have seemed that one of the central preoccupations of our time with Greek Myth was going to be relations between the hero and various females....
23:21:40 [AnthonyB] [A halting step, terpsichor? or just a Viennese Waltz?]
23:22:09 [Terpsichor] a wild boogie
23:22:35 [AnthonyB] ...but GM is very concerned also with a lot of the larger issues of social structure, community values etc. etc.
23:22:36 [Eurydice] Were the muses given specific realms within the Theogony? I don't think they were, correct?
23:23:26 [Terpsichor] I think I actually invented dance, so I don't have time to be bothered with managing a realm, I just dance
23:23:31 [AnthonyB] The specialisation of the Muses isn't fully attested to till a lot later, though I suspect that may just be an accident of survival of relevant texts
23:24:18 [Eurydice] I would imagine that the jobs and relative importance of the Muses varied from place to place.
23:24:51 jul0386 enters this room
23:25:21 [AnthonyB] One of the essential things about the Muses is that (a) they are part of the present structure of things, therefore children of Zeus, but (b) they are also quite elemental, therefore children of Mnemosysne, who is a Titan
23:25:36 [AnthonyB] Hi there, jul! Welcome!
23:25:52 [AnthonyB] [Mnemosyne!]
23:26:31 [AnthonyB] I.e. Memory (Mnemosyne) comes into being very early on, and is fundamental to our world
23:27:20 [Eurydice] That would put the Muses's arts at the foundation of Greek society. That rather throws a monkey wrench into Plato's whole view on art as an imitative evil.
23:27:38 [AnthonyB] Worth knowing, also, that the Muses have a sanctuary on Mt. Helicon, and they were worshipped there (along with Hesiod being commemorated there, incidentally(
23:27:55 monikita enters this room
23:28:19 [AnthonyB]
Oh yes - you should never regard a philosopher as representing 'normality'.... 
23:28:49 [AnthonyB] Hi there, monikita! Welcome!
23:29:20 [monikita] hi, everyone
23:29:35 [Eurydice] Professor, with the Muses, I would imagine Orpheus to be the most prominent of their descendents, but did any of the other Muses besides Calliope have children?
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23:33:22 [AnthonyB] Well, let's see.... Terpsichore gets together with Acheloos (one of the great and archetypal rivers) and has the Sirens....
23:33:48 [AnthonyB] Hi there, ilana, japalapa! Welcome!
23:33:50 [Terpsichor] Oh, good, I am glad that I did something exciting!
23:34:14 [ilana] hi
23:34:16 [Terpsichor] and I created monsters...even better!
23:34:23 [japalapa] hi!
23:34:39 [AnthonyB] Calliope has a number of children, not just Orpheus....
23:35:29 [monikita] all of them with terpsichore??
23:35:39 [AnthonyB] Clio has Hyacinth and Polyboea....
23:35:59 [AnthonyB]
Could be an interesting topic, actually....
23:37:25 [Eurydice] Hyacinth...he was an Adonis type figure, right? Loved by the gods but died young and commemorated by a flower?
23:37:29 [AnthonyB] OK - does anyone have anything on their mind, large or small? major or minor? 'clever' or 'silly'?
23:38:08 [AnthonyB] anything they'll have a quiet nervous breakdown about if they don't get some sort of an answer?
23:38:41 [Terpsichor] well, after looking at the bulletin board, how about how Odysseus is depicted very differently in Homer than in Euripidies
23:39:05 [AnthonyB] Hyacinth was a boyfriend of Apollo - and I'm hoping we may have time to get to him sometime in class - it's an interesting area
23:39:20 [Terpsichor] he is not a nice guy in Euripidies
23:39:50 [AnthonyB] Apollo killed his lover accidentally - a discus bounced off a rock....
23:40:14 [iceman] hope i never do that to my lover
23:40:21 [Eurydice] Yeah...that Apollo, not quite so lucky when it comes to love.
23:40:23 [Terpsichor] that is so tragic, how did he ever get over his guilt
23:40:42 [AnthonyB] There was a major festival, cult, etc. of Hyacinth and Apollo just outside Sparta (at a place called Amyclae)
23:41:14 [AnthonyB] Apollo never succeeds in making it with anyone - no long-term partner, that is
23:41:33 [Eurydice] Pretty much all of Apollo's affairs end badly, it would seem. Or maybe it's just the bad stories that draw us in, like a trashy tabloid.
23:41:53 [Eurydice] Since they're the stories that were interesting, they were the stories that survived.
23:42:01 [smlwong] hmm... i think you once mentioned that dionysus had a happily ever after love life... were/are there any other gods who got that?
23:42:02 [AnthonyB] but, of course, he wouldn't - he is a male equivalent to Artemis, after all
23:42:34 [AnthonyB] No, it's not just sensationalism: Apollo is destined not to have a romantic success
23:42:37 [Terpsichor] I was thinking about that from a comment someone made in chat one sunday. I know this is before all of your time, but it is like on Bonanza, if little Joe ever gets a girlfriend, she is always killed before the end of the week, so he can have a new love interest the next week
23:42:42 [Eurydice] Whereas Artemis is chaste, Apollo is promiscuous, but they are both equally alone.
23:43:00 [AnthonyB] ....as I say, a male equivalent to Artemis.... (worth thinking about)
23:43:41 [Terpsichor] I meant killed off before the end of the show
23:43:42 [JamieMatts] She's a virgin, in a way.
23:44:12 [AnthonyB] Well, they are both 'pure' - and that, and the fact they are twins, should lead us to examining in what way they are twinned (i.e. male and female equivalents)...
23:44:24 [Eurydice] Ah, Bonanza...I used to watch that with my grandpa.
23:44:35 [Eurydice] Most of the gods are in some kind of tandem pair, no?
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23:44:54 [AnthonyB] I think that tells us we have to rethink our preconceived categories and reshape them in order to really think 'Greek'
23:45:38 [ben] think greek?
23:45:51 [AnthonyB] so purity is not necessarily to be defined solely (or even primarily) in terms of 'virginity' or 'promiscuity'....
23:46:09 [jul0386] professor i have a question
23:46:21 [AnthonyB] Hi, Angelita!
23:46:29 [AnthonyB] Welcome!
23:46:40 [AnthonyB] Jul?
23:46:40 [Terpsichor] you know what Eurydice said, one chaste, one promiscuous, but both alone, it is the same thing in some cases, both afraid of intimacy
23:46:45 [Angelita] Hello there! this is my first time here, i'm trying to get used to this
23:46:58 [Eurydice] Or incapable of it.
23:47:20 [AnthonyB] Good! Double welcome!
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23:47:28 [neil] Me too! My first time
23:47:38 [jul0386] Professor i have a question, In the theogony, it talks of how gaia was mad that the titans were overthrown and spawned typhoeus to fight against zeus yet later on it mentions that Hera was the motehr of Typhoeus..how does that happen
23:47:39 [Angelita] hahah thank ya
23:47:44 [Angelita] cool! i'm not the only one
23:47:53 [AnthonyB] Hi there, Andy! Welcome!
23:48:09 [iceman] sounds like something outta springer
23:48:20 [ben] think greek?
23:48:21 [Andychen] Hello
23:48:41 [neil] Professor, could you explain if Poseidon plays a part other than being present at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis?
23:48:46 [Andychen] I almost forgot to come.. remembered at the last minute, is the rest of this chat going to be posted on the website?
23:48:49 [AnthonyB] Just remember that chatrooms are quite demanding on one's computer memory, and also on the server CPU, so the browser screen can jump around at times, and even crash occasionally.
23:49:49 [AnthonyB] Neil, do you mean specifically at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis (Poseidon playing a part)? or in the larger realm of Greek Myth?
23:50:11 [neil] specifically in the wedding, or in the resulting Trojan War
23:51:29 [AnthonyB] Jul, I think what that expresses is that Gaia and Hera have somewhat the same function, first of all, as one another, in their own generations; and then the underlying purpose of creating Typhoeus (or Typhos) is similar, even if the motivation was different in each case
23:52:00 [AnthonyB] Well, remember that Poseidon was one of the builders of the walls of Troy
23:52:17 [neil] oh, that's right..
23:52:27 [AnthonyB] [Yes, I'll be posting this chat to the chat archives afterwards.]
23:53:07 [Eurydice] Professor, I have a question regarding Artemis...
23:53:15 [AnthonyB] So Poseidon is very involved in Troy and the War. Quite extensively described in Iliad 14, actually
23:53:25 [AnthonyB] Yes, Eurydice?
23:53:39 [neil] thanks.. i'll look it up
23:54:09 [Andychen] Professor, in last weeks lecture could you clarify about what you meant by myth doesn't predict anything about the future
23:54:21 [Eurydice] I understand how she is supposed to be related to childbirth, assisting Leto and all, but she is also represented as a mother goddess in Ephesus, right? How does that work?
23:55:27 [AnthonyB] Going back to Typhos a moment: remember what I;ve stressed about how GM allows you to explore different points of view and different aspects.... so the essential question is not 'Well who WAS Typhos' mother, then?!', but rather, how would such a mostrous, world-threatening dragon come about? ...
23:56:05 [AnthonyB] .... in what circumstances? why? how do we make sense of that? And to that question there are several different possible answers...
23:56:11 [jul0386] Wasn't it also said that when the temple of artemis burned down, the god allowed it because she was assisting the birth of alexander the great?
00:00:50 [AnthonyB] Well, Artemis is not really a 'mother goddess' at Ephesus
00:00:51 [Terpsichor] I have trouble with the whole Titanomachy and Giantomachy, but I know that the Giantomachy takes place after the Titanomachy and that the Giants were created by the blood of Ouranos castration, falling on Gaia
00:02:25 [Terpsichor] I also know (at least I think I know, correct me if I am wrong) that Zeus heard that he could not win just by divine hands, that he needed a mortal, so he fathered Herakles with the mortal woman Alcmene
00:02:30 [Eurydice] Well, yeah, that would make sense, but then why represent her the way they do?
00:03:01 [AnthonyB] careful, it's the Furies/Erinyes that are born of the blood of Ouranos
00:03:35 [AnthonyB] What are you thinking of, Eurydice?
00:03:44 [Terpsichor] I thought the giants and the ash-tree nymphs came from that same blood
00:03:54 [AnthonyB] That statue now at Smyrna?
00:04:41 [monikita] from the union of gaea and uranus came the titans
00:05:14 [Eurydice] Uh...maybe, I don't really remember. All I remember is reading about a many-breasted goddess statue at Ephesus. Maybe I was confused.
00:06:10 [Terpsichor] yes, the older generation from the olympian gods, the olympian gods being Zeus' brothers, sisters and children
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00:08:08 [AnthonyB] No, you weren't confused, Eurydice - there is a curious and interesting statue in the museum at Smyrna which is known as the Artemis of Ephesus, and she is covered with what look like breasts all over her front....
00:08:50 [AnthonyB] ....but the statue is unique, and no-one really knows what it is. The covering could equally well be an elaborate breast-plate
00:09:00 [Terpsichor] the titans come into power after Kronos castrates Ouranos, but later in the Titanomachy we have a ten year war between the titans and the olympic gods and it shook the universe. When the Olympian gods win, Zeus throws throws the titans that opposed him into Tartarus
00:09:26 [Eurydice] Okay...that makes a little more sense.
00:09:33 [AnthonyB] Terpsichore, yes, the Giants were created from the blood of Ouranos - only after a long gestation (unlike the Erinyes)
00:10:12 [Terpsichor] well, they are big, I guess they took longer!
00:10:31 [AnthonyB] The Titans and the Giants are sometimes all rolled into one, sometimes viewed as separate entities, with a separate battle to deal with each group for the Olympians
00:11:20 [AnthonyB] so sometimes there's a single battle, sometimes a Titanomachy followed by a Gigantomachy
00:11:43 [AnthonyB] ... a two-step battle, but essentially part of the same process
00:11:53 [Terpsichor] I went to the Virgin Mary house in Ephesus, well, they are not really sure if she lived there, my husband said that the city council got together and decided that they needed a virgin mary house for some extra tourist bucks, he can be cynical sometimes!
00:13:35 [Terpsichor] They do have an amazing ampitheatre where the apostle John spoke
00:14:01 [AnthonyB] Mary at Ephesus is an old tradition - I'm sure there was some tourist money to be made there in antiquity, but equally important Artemis of Ephesus is the prefect precursor to Mary, very appropriate that that should be the transformation...
00:14:44 [Andychen] what is the new role of the furies after they are turned into euminides
00:14:53 [Eurydice] Then is Artemis considered a mother goddess by some because of the geographical connection to Mary?
00:14:55 [Terpsichor] Oh yes, I have always felt that Mary is an archetype, a goddess reincarnation, and yet I still very much venerate her
00:15:25 [AnthonyB] No, it's rather the other way round: Mary is considered a virgin figure
00:16:00 [Eurydice] Well, that would certainly make sense.
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00:16:41 [Terpsichor] what do you mean, the other way around?
00:17:12 [AnthonyB] (Look at what this exemplifies: in Greek pagan thinking the primary male-female connection is brother to sister: in the post-pagan transformation it is son to mother...
00:17:56 [AnthonyB] The male is still the select, special figure. (Apollo has many of the hallmarks of a 'son of god')
00:19:07 [Eurydice] I always saw Dionysus as more of a Jesus figure than Apollo.
00:19:52 [Andychen] dionysus was sometimes known as a god of craziness though
00:20:01 [AnthonyB] Dionysus also. There's more than one pagan precursor...
00:20:40 [AnthonyB] Ecstasy, possession - transformation of consciousness
00:20:52 [Terpsichor] what I find so interesting about Greek myth is that there is room for so many "types." As opposed to Judeochristian tradition. For example, in Catholicism, it is nice to have Mary, a woman venerated, on the other hand, she is an unreal "perfect" virgin image of goodness..hopeless to attempt to emul
00:21:02 [Terpsichor] emulate
00:22:51 [AnthonyB] Greek Myth offers multiple prisms through which to break out the light that comes from 'reality'...
00:23:01 [Terpsichor] with greek myth, you have so many different "types" that you can turn to. For instance, I have always found God and Jesus intimidating, so I pray to Mary. But look at the variety that the Greeks had to pray to and worship
00:23:45 [AnthonyB] ....and you get different distibutions of light depending which prism you use
00:24:04 [Eurydice] What a poetic image.
00:24:19 [Eurydice] But alas, I must away. It's been fun.
00:25:17 phoenix exits from this room
00:25:27 [Eurydice] Take care, everyone.
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00:26:27 [Terpsichor] Yes, I guess we should call it a night....good luck on the midterm!!!
00:27:04 [AnthonyB] Ugh! My connection dropped suddenly
00:27:54 [AnthonyB] I should be heading off, too - a lot to do before I can turn in...
00:27:59 JamieMatts exits from this room
00:28:43 [AnthonyB] Remember, the bulletin board is there if there are any important questions, or issues - or, indeed, just casual musings or thoughts.
00:29:33 [AnthonyB] I'll say GoodNight, everyone.