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22:58:23 JamieMatts enters this room
22:59:31 sdf3boy enters this room
22:59:51 [JamieMatts] Hello
23:00:07 [sdf3boy] hello
23:00:36 [JamieMatts] What shall we talk about?
23:00:55 jhandcock enters this room
23:01:00 [sdf3boy] hmm, more people should be coming, no?
23:01:19 [jhandcock] hey all
23:01:21 [JamieMatts] I'll just cross my fingers.
23:01:23 [jhandcock] ...all two...
23:01:29 [JamieMatts] Hello.
23:01:31 [jhandcock] ...we lucky few...
23:02:01 [jhandcock] does anyone have any idea what the midterm is gonna look like?
23:02:12 asphodel enters this room
23:02:28 coolfreze enters this room
23:02:31 [jhandcock] hi asphodel
23:02:34 [JamieMatts] Well there are going to be some identification.
23:02:46 [jhandcock] hi coolfreze
23:02:48 [asphodel] hello everyone!
23:02:56 [jhandcock] of passages, correct?
23:03:05 [jhandcock] was that discussed in lecture?
23:03:19 [JamieMatts] My GSI talked about it.
23:03:40 [JamieMatts] Identification of names I think.
23:03:50 AnthonyB enters this room
23:03:51 >[AnthonyB] Welcome to our chat. Please obey the net etiquette while chatting: try to be pleasant and polite.
23:04:11 [jhandcock] i see
23:04:17 [AnthonyB] Hi there, everyone!
23:04:21 [jhandcock] hello AnthonyB
23:04:30 [JamieMatts] Hello.
23:04:33 [coolfreze] hello
23:04:41 [asphodel] jess, that is the professor!
23:04:52 [jhandcock] so i shouldn't say hello?
23:05:12 Admin enters this room
23:05:16 [asphodel] yes, of course
23:05:43 [AnthonyB]
23:05:58 . enters this room
23:05:59 [jhandcock] so what's the topic tonight, folks?
23:06:12 [AnthonyB] [Couldn't find the one for 'blushing'...]
23:06:14 [JamieMatts] Ion is a nice change from the tragedies.
23:06:24 [asphodel] Professor, we were hoping that you had some wine with dinner and would tell us what is going to be on the midterm
23:06:25 [AnthonyB] What would you like, Jessica?
23:07:08 [asphodel] in the spirit of Dionysus and all
23:07:17 [jhandcock] i'm up for anything
23:07:39 [jhandcock] i am, however, particularly curious about the content of our upcoming midterm
23:08:05 1 enters this room
23:09:49 [asphodel] Well, I guess he did not have any wine...darn...is anyone besides me having trouble keeping the geneologies straight in Theogony
23:10:19 [JamieMatts] Well, sometimes they are contradictory.
23:10:35 [Admin] Oh, come on!
23:10:36 [JamieMatts] For example Eros.
23:11:06 [asphodel] oh, you brought up Ion Jamie, want to talk about Ion?
23:11:18 [AnthonyB] We'll talk about the mid-term in class this week, of course, but if you really want to spend some time here on that...?
23:11:28 [JamieMatts] No, geneologies are good too.
23:11:52 [jhandcock]
I suppose I can wait... Ion sounds good.
23:12:45 1 exits from this room
23:12:50 [AnthonyB] Also, there's a whole page on the website....
23:13:05 [asphodel] Ion it is. I found it bizarre how one minute you could be ready to kill someone and the next minute you love them because you find out that they are your son
23:13:47 [AnthonyB] Where have we met that before?!
23:14:07 [JamieMatts] A little like Oedipus.
23:14:20 [AnthonyB] No, seriously - what does that remind you of? or put you in mind of?
23:15:04 [JamieMatts] I was serious, Oedipus wouldn't have killed his father had he known it was him.
23:15:06 [asphodel] wasn't Telemachos ready to kill Odysseus at first
23:16:46 viceprez enters this room
23:17:15 [AnthonyB] Yes, Telemachus got himself into a somewhat ambiguous position/mode. for a moment. (Then Telegonus actually went there.)
23:17:28 [AnthonyB] Hi there, viceprez! Welcome!
23:17:38 [AnthonyB] What about mothers, though?
23:18:11 [JamieMatts] Medea!
23:18:37 [JamieMatts] Except, the other way around.
23:18:52 phoenix enters this room
23:19:20 [JamieMatts] She loves her children one moment, then she is ready to kill them.
23:19:48 [AnthonyB] Hi there, Phoenix! WELCOME!
23:19:54 [asphodel] I saw a movie of Medea today, in subtitles, interesting, but strange and irritating music, and you should have seen Maria Calllas (Medea) fake eyelashes, they were quite something!
23:20:06 [AnthonyB] [Sorry! Caps got stuck...]
23:20:28 [AnthonyB] Dramatic, though!
23:20:53 [asphodel] yes, it was a unique take to be sure
23:22:06 [asphodel] I wondered if they cast Medea as older than Jason as if to highlight that they were a mismatch in many ways
23:22:43 [phoenix] anyone watch "the odyssey" on the sci-fi channel last night?
23:23:01 [asphodel] no, tell us about it!!
23:23:09 smlwong enters this room
23:23:11 [JamieMatts] I thought Medea was quite young when she left with Jason.
23:23:11 99 enters this room
23:23:36 [sdf3boy] i saw that odyssey last night
23:24:30 [sdf3boy] i noticed they didn't wanna discuss the rape of cassandra on a tv show, so they have odysseus anger the gods by saying he didn't need their help
23:24:35 [asphodel] was it the one with Armand Assante?
23:24:44 [phoenix] yup
23:24:45 [sdf3boy] yea
23:24:55 [phoenix] and brenette petters as circe
23:25:15 [asphodel] Oh, I saw that, but not last night, yes the sexy Bernadette!
23:26:18 [asphodel] And Vanessa Williams as Kalypso
23:26:25 [AnthonyB] Hi there, sml! and 99! Welcome!
23:26:50 [phoenix] i missed the part with kalypso, i was out of the room at the time
23:28:19 [asphodel] as I recall the movie is not equivocal enough, you don't ever question the brutal slaughter of the suitors and the maids the way you do with the novel
23:29:16 skytro0per enters this room
23:29:22 [AnthonyB] We're drifting somewhat from Ion (which is OK - we can come back to that), but this does raise the interesting question about relative values: how would you say the TV and film presentations, and modes, reflect a different set of values, and taboos?
23:30:24 [skytro0per] how society reacts to what they are doing...in different cultures evoke a different reaction...just a guess
23:30:51 [AnthonyB] And, of course, would you say it matters?
23:31:05 [AnthonyB] Hi there, skytrooper! Welcome!
23:31:28 [JamieMatts] Questioning the use of violence isn't encouraged much in the mainstream, not that it is in Greek Myth.
23:32:01 [asphodel] I heard that the disney movie of Herakles presented him as the legitamate son of Zeus and Hera and although I don't know the story of Herakles, I know enough to know that Hera's role as a jealous step-mother is paramount, so by sanitizing his birth, they destroy the story
23:32:36 [skytro0per] I would think that it matters. People conform to their surroundings in order to 'fit in'
23:32:43 [AnthonyB] Well, for example - would you say from your reading of Greek Myth so far, and the texts we're reading, that any or some of the primary moral reference points were markedly different from our own? and does it matter?
23:33:15 [skytro0per] As far as morgal refernces they are vastly different.
23:33:35 [JamieMatts] Well, slavery seems OK.
23:33:41 [skytro0per] There are many cases of incest, by leaders nontheless, which would in our society be rejected
23:33:51 azncuty238 enters this room
23:34:06 [skytro0per] Imagine if Pres. Bush slept with his mother and had a child, that would unacceptable
23:34:25 [skytro0per] In the Greek society that is seen as the norm
23:34:35 [skytro0per] Or atleast among the Gods
23:34:49 [JamieMatts] Well, they didn't have a choice.
23:35:06 [skytro0per] But the choice isn't the focal point.
23:35:09 [JamieMatts] There wasn't anyone else.
23:35:15 [skytro0per] The focal point is how society reacted.
23:35:44 [skytro0per] In the Greek myth's, I do not remember reading of any reading about how someone was angry about the incest
23:36:01 [skytro0per] The social norms is typically what control's peoples actions
23:36:02 [JamieMatts] Oedipus.
23:36:23 [skytro0per] Right, but that was a comedy
23:36:23 [JamieMatts] Oedipus was punished for incest.
23:36:29 [JamieMatts] What?!?!?
23:36:44 [skytro0per] I thought it was funny =P
23:36:49 [skytro0per] It wasn't a comedy
23:37:02 [skytro0per] King Oedipus, where he is fated to have a son that takes over his throne
23:37:05 [sdf3boy] Among the gods, there wasn't much choice but to practice incest. Among humans in the greek world, incest isn't exactly normal
23:37:09 [skytro0per] and kill him and marry his wife
23:37:59 [skytro0per] Trying to catagorize human's the greek world into one subject is impossible
23:38:10 [skytro0per] here were huge differences between athens and sparta, atleast pertaining to marriage
23:38:18 [skytro0per] *there
23:38:25 [JamieMatts] True.
23:38:41 [JamieMatts] I don't think incest was generally encouraged though.
23:38:49 [skytro0per] Sparta just wanted to procreate, and partners never met each other
23:39:09 [skytro0per] Hmm.....
23:39:13 [skytro0per] I can't recall names
23:39:24 [skytro0per] But arn't there cases where they will marry within their own family
23:39:31 [skytro0per] to strengthen their heir to the throne
23:39:35 MissAmy enters this room
23:40:49 [sdf3boy] i suppose it depends how far you have to go before it isn't incest... for instance Tyro and uncles
23:40:51 [JamieMatts] Egyptians did that.
23:41:06 [asphodel] I don't know about the Greeks, but I believe Cleopatra married her brother, among many...she was the Elizabeth Taylor of Egypt
23:42:01 [skytro0per] Alright, well then I ask this
23:42:13 [skytro0per] If that had happened, could you think how the society would react?
23:42:21 jaewon12 enters this room
23:42:47 [skytro0per] I don't see this to be a big deal in their society
23:42:49 [asphodel] you mean now, today?
23:42:55 [skytro0per] No, in the Greek world
23:43:13 [skytro0per] When the God's you worship do it, why would you discourage someone you know from doing it
23:43:20 [sdf3boy] yeah, i think its a much bigger deal to us than them
23:43:39 [AnthonyB] Welcome, MissAmy and jaewon12!
23:43:40 [skytro0per] This gets into the questions of who ar e the Greeks by looking at the Gods
23:44:10 [JamieMatts] Well, exposing infants doesn't seem to have been a big deal either.
23:44:26 [skytro0per] Yea
23:44:35 [sdf3boy] I think it was still a traumatic event
23:44:50 [skytro0per] In this light it becomes apparant that the Greeks obvisouly have the same morals we have today
23:45:03 [asphodel] no, that takes us back to Ion, she said that she had to hide the child from her mother
23:45:07 [AnthonyB] ...and also what is the function of myth? Is it simply a narrative reflection and equivalence of daily society?
23:45:17 [sdf3boy] Cruesa still felt bad
23:45:52 [skytro0per] feeling are aribitrary
23:46:12 [asphodel] I think it explores our fantasies, and things that we repress
23:46:26 [skytro0per] Supports our imagination
23:46:35 [skytro0per] but also as historical refrence
23:46:49 [skytro0per] Establish a line of passage between ancient times till now
23:47:07 [skytro0per] Id say equivalence of daily society
23:48:13 [skytro0per] One second...ill be right back
23:48:16 armodons enters this room
23:48:38 [AnthonyB] What do the rest of you thinnk?
23:48:48 [MissAmy] if it's a daily equivalence to society today, then why would we need myth at all? couldn't we just tell stories about what's happening now?
23:48:53 [asphodel] for example, today I was wondering if the sacrifice of Iphigenia has, in some way, to do with killing her off because her father and his friends (who she used to sing to as a child at her home- remember the speech in the play) are afraid of her awakening sexuality and symbolically her girlhood is k
23:48:59 [MissAmy]
let me repeat that
23:49:02 [AnthonyB] Hi there, armodons! Welcome!
23:49:05 [MissAmy] if it's a daily equivalence to society today, then why would we need myth at all? couldn't we just tell stories about what's happening now?
23:49:14 [sdf3boy] I think its more like the extremes of society
23:49:21 [armodons] hi all
23:49:26 [asphodel] her girlhood is killed off, sacrificed for her awakening womanhood
23:49:45 [MissAmy] i think that's more like it too -- not an exact reflection, but stretching the bounds to see how far we can get
23:51:02 [AnthonyB] Asphodel, I was going to ask - would you say she is 'killed off' literally?
23:52:03 [asphodel] no, symbolically
23:52:34 [AnthonyB] What I call the 'What if?' approach of GM...
23:52:52 [asphodel] there is some electra stuff going on there with Iphigenia
23:53:01 [AnthonyB] = 'if we could X, what would it look like?'
23:54:10 [JamieMatts] Especially in the plays.
23:55:38 [AnthonyB] and remember that the narrative of the myth extends further: Iphigeneia is carried off to a distant land (Tauris), thence rescued by her brother, and she returns to Greece and dies there. (Her tomb is in several places in Greece.) So our explanation for what's going on has to include that part of
23:56:18 armodons enters this room
23:56:29 [asphodel] another example that explores this...what if when Zeus causes Semele to explode or incinerate or whatever, what if it is really about a secret desire for a transformitve sexual experience, or an experience to obliteration
23:57:34 [asphodel] my point is just that there is always hidden stuff beneath the literal myth
23:58:15 [AnthonyB] [...that part of the narrative.]
23:58:17 [skytro0per] sexuality is a definite motif in the myths
23:58:46 [skytro0per] to find the meaning of the myths, we have to understand the theme's and then see what they are sayign about them
23:58:49 [AnthonyB] Absolutely! Myth is the language of symbol.
23:58:54 [skytro0per] then we can compare their meaning to our interpretations of our society
23:59:11 [AnthonyB] sexuality and sex
23:59:36 [asphodel] sorry, let's see, Tauris and brothers rescue..hm.. brother will protect you from father's incestuous desire....maybe I am stretching too far!
23:59:42 [skytro0per] arn't there also many many smaller motifs/theme's?
23:59:42 [JamieMatts] The Gods were symbolic figures in a sense too right?
23:59:52 [skytro0per] Yea
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00:00:11 [skytro0per] Each god had their own symbol
00:02:33 [asphodel] and we get extremes that meet for a middle, there is a line in the Odyssey: "In all things balence is better"
00:02:47 [AnthonyB] Yes - and remember that these gods were their actual gods, also - these are the gods of Greek religious practice, and Greek religion was a fully functioning and economic system for more than 2,500 years
00:05:59 [asphodel] As a Catholic, I always felt worship of the saints was a way to sort of get to worship other gods, I know that sounds strange, but it is similar, you pray to specific saints for specific needs
00:08:20 [asphodel] It is a way to cheat and break the commandment, "thou shall have no other gods before you." You probably think I am crazy, but I think human beings have a need for different types of representation, the saints do that, the gods did that for people too
00:08:55 [AnthonyB] Well, the saints do give a polytheistic dimension to the whole...
00:09:15 [JamieMatts] Maybe people like to catagorize things?
00:09:22 [sdf3boy] Its the same way we have cultural icons etc, and they had heroes
00:09:28 phoenix exits from this room
00:09:35 [asphodel] oh, and they have such gory and wild stories!
00:09:45 [JamieMatts] So do we.
00:10:09 [AnthonyB] to categorise, and classify - and also, to try to explain somewhat the variety and complexity of our experience
00:11:13 [AnthonyB] [A lot of the stories about the saints are pretty gory, Asphodel!
00:11:40 [asphodel] I was referring to the saints!
00:12:11 [asphodel] they may have all been psychotic as well, but I still pray to them
00:13:13 [AnthonyB]
(I think a Greek might have made a very similar comment 2,000 years ago.
00:13:40 [asphodel] that makes me feel better!
00:14:58 [JamieMatts] They have such a very different view of death than the normal Christian one though.
00:15:12 [AnthonyB] Just to connect back to where we started - does anyone have any parallels or similar examples for Creousa considering killing children?
00:15:43 [sdf3boy] hecuba
00:17:34 JoelMR enters this room
00:17:39 [asphodel] what do you mean Hecuba?
00:17:46 [JamieMatts] I believe Agamemnon did.
00:18:48 [sdf3boy] I only mean Hecuba left Paris to die, but he grew up anyway
00:19:26 [asphodel] Oh, yeah, I forgot about that
00:20:13 [AnthonyB] [Sorry - lost my connection.]
00:20:47 [AnthonyB] What about child-killing acts similar to the one Creousa contemplates?
00:22:17 [sdf3boy] I suggested before that Hecuba left Paris to die but he was miraculously raised
00:22:36 [asphodel] this is not similar, it is not just leaving a baby, but Hera tries to destroy her lame son, the great artisan, Hephestos, or something like that
00:23:26 [AnthonyB] Yes, Hera is rather ambiguous about motherhood, isn't she, sometimes?
00:23:48 [AnthonyB] What about rival mothers?
00:23:56 [asphodel] that is what I love about her...her imperfection...I can relate
00:24:35 [asphodel] Oh yes, Ino tries to kill Nephele's kids
00:25:10 [sdf3boy] And Tyro kills some of her children
00:25:34 [AnthonyB] Yes, and Themisto's as well. (We haven't touched on Themisto in class - Athamas had a third wife....)
00:25:54 [asphodel] a very busy man!
00:25:57 [AnthonyB] Yes, good.
00:26:33 [AnthonyB] Yes, quite busy.
00:27:15 [AnthonyB] Any parallel there with Creousa?
00:28:55 [asphodel] Tyro hates the children because they are from the rape of Poseidon, Creusa is raped by Apollo, but you never feel that she hated Ion
00:28:56 [JamieMatts] Well, they are murdering, atleast who they think, are their stepchildren.
00:29:59 [asphodel] oh wait, I think the kids Tryo murdered were by Sisyphus, she tried to kill Poseidon's but they lived, oh, maybe I am wrong, I get so confused!
00:30:10 [AnthonyB] Yes, surely, Jamie: it's other people's children they (think they) are dispatching - rivals.
00:31:12 [AnthonyB] No, you're thinking along the right lines, Asphodel. Poor Tyro!
00:31:56 [sdf3boy] Even better if Poseidon's kids didn't die. Then it matches well with Creousa
00:33:53 [sdf3boy] I've got to go now. good chat
00:34:18 [asphodel] goodnitesdf3boy!
00:35:11 cath2801 enters this room
00:35:24 [AnthonyB] Yes, I think it's time for me to get back to a few things that need doing before tomorrow also.
00:35:40 [asphodel] Maybe we should all call it a night...sleep tight...may the gods watch over us and protect us and not send too many thunderbolts our way!! See you in class.
00:36:08 asphodel exits from this room
00:36:20 [cath2801] oh bummer i missed the chat
00:36:30 [AnthonyB] We have a few questions and ideas still in development, but that is the way of Greek Myth.... (and we've only just begun....)
00:37:44 [AnthonyB] Cath - type in /show 500 [that's a forward slash followed by the word 'show' then a space then a high number]
00:37:46 [cath2801] well i don't really have any questions, i was just hoping to read along
00:38:16 [AnthonyB] You should then be able to see the whole text for the last hour or so
00:38:41 [cath2801] oh, cool
00:38:53 [AnthonyB] and I'll be posting the text to the chat archive also
00:39:26 [cath2801] great
00:39:47 [AnthonyB] But I'm going to say GoodNight, everyone. See you in class....
00:40:13 [JamieMatts] Bye