[Note: times are recorded EST, not PST.]
Please read from the top of the page down.
15:30:48 RossHB enters this room
15:55:34 15149423 enters this room
16:40:12 kimmy145 enters this room
22:15:49 jhandcock enters this room
22:20:17 jul0386 enters this room
22:20:44 jul0386 exits from this room
22:36:19 lchen enters this room
22:51:10 ConorD enters this room
22:57:13 windracer enters this room
22:57:15 bdeal enters this room
22:57:43 [bdeal] HEY
22:57:56 [windracer] hello!
22:58:29 [windracer] so does anyone know who was the other sister of Helen and Clytemnestra?
22:58:45 [bdeal] no i forgot to look it up
22:59:04 smlwong enters this room
22:59:17 MissAmy enters this room
23:00:19 [MissAmy] i think the other's sister's name starts with a "p" -- possibly phoebe?
23:00:21 [lchen] i read it somewhere a couple of weeks ago
23:00:31 [lchen] I think it starts with a P
23:00:50 [lchen] yeah, and it's pretty short too
23:00:57 fizzle enters this room
23:01:05 [lchen] but Phoebe isn't Greek enough is it?
23:01:17 [bdeal] yea it is
23:02:26 [fizzle] Has everyone read the Atlas?
23:02:42 [bdeal] nope.....
23:02:47 [fizzle] I read it and it seems as if nothing sticks. Just wondering if any of you feel the same way.
23:02:51 [windracer] well, not the whole thing just yet
23:03:01 [bdeal] i dont see phoebe in relation to clytemnestra and co
23:03:12 Cimmerian enters this room
23:03:16 nahry enters this room
23:03:38 emr enters this room
23:03:40 [windracer] did phoebe have a significant background too?
23:04:16 bluemnm enters this room
23:04:30 [lchen] Polydeuces (Pollux) was the sister of Helen
23:04:33 [fizzle] Is Phoebe significant in the new readings?
23:04:37 [bdeal] there Pollux and Helen and Cltemnestra and Castor
23:04:39 [lchen] and therefore the half-sister of Clytemnestra
23:05:04 [Cimmerian] Oh, I thought Pollux was a guy...duh
23:05:13 JamieMatts enters this room
23:05:16 [bdeal] yea mee too
23:05:22 [bdeal] i know castor is a guy
23:06:04 [Cimmerian] I did see that Odysseus' father may have been Sisyphus and not Laertes
23:06:05 ravitia enters this room
23:06:09 [windracer] i thought Helen had two brothers, yes
23:06:28 phalone enters this room
23:06:52 [ravitia] hey wassup....im new to this so whats the deal here
23:06:57 [bdeal] there were two sets of twins from Leda from what i understood...
23:07:13 [fizzle] Just ask any questions that you have.
23:07:21 [Cimmerian] Yes, I thought Pollux was her full-twin with Zeus as a father, and Castor her half-brother, having Tyndareus as a father
23:07:22 [windracer] well, we're currently wondering about the other sister of Helen and Clytemnestra
23:07:32 [ravitia] ok im out
23:07:33 [ravitia] late
23:07:36 ravitia exits from this room
23:07:42 [fizzle] hah
23:08:17 [jhandcock] i think phoebe was a sister of helen and clyt.
23:08:23 [bdeal] Prof said the siter of both Helen and Clytemnestra?
23:08:42 [jhandcock] there are 2 other children, tho, Phylonoe and Timandra
23:08:46 [jhandcock] I think
23:09:09 Admin enters this room
23:09:56 [jhandcock] phylonoe was a daughter of leda and tyndareus, she was made immortal by artemis
23:10:10 AnthonyB enters this room
23:10:19 [Cimmerian] I just looked up Phoebe and what do you know...I think jhandcock is right!
23:10:41 [MissAmy] woohoo!
23:10:45 [AnthonyB] Greetings, everyone!
23:10:58 [bdeal] Phylone is the winner!!!!!
23:11:04 dncrcait enters this room
23:11:14 [windracer] cool! and through what major occurrence was she made immortal by Artemis?
23:11:15 [jhandcock] timandra, as well
23:11:20 [phalone] hi professor
23:11:22 [windracer] hello!
23:11:32 [jhandcock] haven't figured that out yet...
23:11:37 [bdeal] but timandra has a different mother
23:11:52 emr exits from this room
23:12:30 [jhandcock] really? who?
23:13:19 [bdeal] oh my bad Timandra has a wife..i read it wrong
23:13:31 [AnthonyB]
Looks like you all have this buzzing along very nicely.... 
23:13:34 [bdeal] Echemus...
23:13:57 [bdeal]
husband husband...sorry
23:14:10 [jhandcock] yeah
23:14:26 [jhandcock] phylone was an attendant to artemis
23:14:50 [jhandcock] and may have been worshipped in Sparta...
23:14:57 [jhandcock] ain't that nice?
23:15:08 [windracer] hehe
23:15:22 [Cimmerian] good heavens...jhandcock is like an encyclopedia of classical mythology!
23:15:38 [bdeal] lol
23:15:40 [windracer] yes indeed!
23:15:56 [jhandcock] ha! i'm just a whiz with google
23:16:18 [jhandcock] and call me jess
23:16:31 [Cimmerian] whatever works!
23:16:35 [phalone] love that google....; )
23:16:37 [phalone] go jess
23:16:41 [bdeal] hi Jess im Brittany
23:17:05 [jhandcock] hi all
23:17:25 [fizzle] I can't remeber the names of all of the guys, it seems impossible to me
23:17:27 [jhandcock] so... we were asked this question for a reason, i'm sure.
23:17:43 [jhandcock] why does phylonoe matter?
23:17:53 [jhandcock] or timandra
23:18:18 [jhandcock] timandra also married a king...
23:19:02 [bdeal] what is he king of??
23:19:06 [fizzle] AnthonyB> I am having trouble remembering what I have read from the Atlas, any helpful comments?
23:19:41 [phalone] tindaria is also made famous for adultery...or supposed to be
23:20:02 [jhandcock] he was the arcadian king
23:20:04 [phalone] maybe for another juxtaposition against helen and clytemnestra?
23:20:09 [bdeal] Echemus, timandra's husband is the king of Tegea, his victory over Hyllus
23:20:15 [phalone] "
23:20:21 [phalone] imandra, sorry*
23:20:39 [jhandcock] hyllus was heracles' son
23:20:45 [Cimmerian] anybody want to talk about any of the plays we have read? Pick a play!
23:21:03 [lchen] how about Agammemnon
23:21:28 [fizzle] Who has read the Trojan Women?
23:21:30 [Cimmerian] You got it. How about that speech of Clytemnestra?
23:21:30 [phalone] beautiful beautiful dialogues in it
23:21:35 [AnthonyB] fizzle> In connection with what topic?
23:21:45 [Cimmerian] I just finished Trojan women
23:22:13 [Cimmerian] anything you want to ask about trojan women
23:22:16 [jhandcock] i haven't read it yet; how is it?
23:22:17 Olympian enters this room
23:22:28 [fizzle] AnthonyB> Just overall, nothing is seeming to stick. I read one page, and they try to remember what I read and some specifics and I start drawing blanks after 2 or 3 pages.
23:22:36 [Cimmerian] Fabulous!
23:22:47 [fizzle] What is it about?
23:22:49 [jhandcock] good to hear
23:22:50 [AnthonyB] Greetings, Olympian! Welcome!
23:22:56 [Cimmerian] It is about the horrors of the aftermath of the trojan war
23:22:56 [fizzle] Other than the obvious.
23:23:07 [Olympian] Thank you, hi
23:23:12 [bdeal] is it about the curseput on the greeks before they depart from troy?
23:23:13 [smlwong] the fate of the women of troy
23:23:17 [fizzle] Such as Hecuba?
23:23:22 [bdeal] i have only read like the 1st 2 pages...
23:23:25 [lchen] is it sad?
23:23:28 [fizzle] And others that fallow suit
23:23:30 [bdeal] oh i c
23:23:34 [smlwong] yes.. and andromache
23:23:38 [bdeal] nice....
23:23:42 [AnthonyB] fizzle> Maybe you're worrying too much that you're going to be examined on it all....?
23:23:47 [fizzle] Sounds good.
23:24:07 [Olympian] That is how i feel dometimes
23:24:15 [Olympian] sometimes
23:24:41 [jhandcock] did anyone else really enjoy iphigenia at aulis?
23:24:47 [fizzle] I assumed that we will be examined on all of the reading.
23:24:51 [jhandcock] it was kind of a shocker for me
23:24:52 [Cimmerian] Achilles' son throws Hector's son off the walls of the city and kills Priam at his family altar, he also wields the knife that kills Polyxena
23:24:54 [bdeal] i did
23:25:00 [lchen] ooh yes
23:25:07 [Cimmerian] It is brutal!
23:25:09 [lchen] I liked Iphigenia
23:25:13 [bdeal] dont give ti away!!!
23:25:18 [Olympian] I guess so
23:25:28 [fizzle] AnthonyB> Should I worry less about the Atlas and shift my focal point onto the other texts?
23:25:52 [bdeal] i read iphigenia after agamemnon so i saw clytemnestra in a hole new light
23:25:53 [jhandcock] i totally dug it. in section the week before we'd discussed agamemnon and whether he had, well, any emotion at all...
23:26:01 [AnthonyB] fizzle> join me in room 1 for a moment....
23:26:03 [Cimmerian] what do you all make of the fact that the war starts with the sacrifice of the virgin Iphigenia and ends with the sacrifice of the virgin Polxena?
23:26:08 [fizzle] ok
23:26:12 fizzle exits from this room
23:26:21 fizzle exits from this room
23:26:22 AnthonyB exits from this room
23:26:23 [jhandcock] don't be a virgin
23:26:36 [jhandcock] if you value your life, that is
23:26:43 [bdeal] lol
23:26:58 [phalone] haha!
23:27:02 [jhandcock] tough crowd...
23:27:10 nahry exits from this room
23:27:12 [lchen] yes, say that right when the teacher leaves the room!
23:27:16 [MissAmy]
i laughed
23:27:23 [Cimmerian] no problem there...I have been married for 25 years!
23:27:35 Olympian exits from this room
23:27:38 [jhandcock] wow
23:27:39 [phalone] well it's a war about a woman, after all, so it's fitting....
23:27:46 Olympian enters this room
23:27:48 [jhandcock] that's a whole other accomplishment
23:27:52 [jhandcock] congrats
23:28:17 [Cimmerian] I am just trying to figure out what the virgin sacrifice is all about, symbolically speaking
23:28:34 [Cimmerian] Oh, thanks for the congrats
23:28:46 [bdeal] why must it always be a virging??
23:28:56 [bdeal] virgin*
23:29:04 [phalone] cutting down what's pure to save the "harlots", eh?
23:29:12 [lchen] since they're "pure"
23:29:18 [jhandcock] it has to do with purity, i'm sure
23:29:21 [bdeal] yea...wassup wt that?
23:29:23 [jhandcock] it's a greater sacrifice, perhaps
23:29:24 [JamieMatts] They seem to be prized more.
23:29:34 [Cimmerian] yes, the rest of us are polluted
23:29:37 kitchen enters this room
23:29:38 [bdeal] oh i c
23:29:43 AnthonyB enters this room
23:29:43 [jhandcock] you're sacrificing their reproductive potential entirely
23:29:44 >[AnthonyB] Welcome to our chat. Please obey the net etiquette while chatting: try to be pleasant and polite.
23:29:46 fizzle enters this room
23:29:54 [lchen] yeah, you don't want to give the Gods something thats tainted
23:30:02 [bdeal] its only a sacrifice if its something need by the community, correct?
23:30:08 [lchen] "tainted"
23:30:08 [phalone] the greeks were big fans of beauty, maybe virgins were the most beautiful thing they could offer the gods
23:30:16 [bdeal] like the town tramp....
23:30:26 [jhandcock] if we follow euripides' version, we could say that both of these women were loved by achilles
23:30:30 [bdeal] maybe virginity is considered beauty....
23:30:36 [jhandcock] which may not be relevant, but what the heck
23:30:47 [jhandcock] also, they both seem to be loyal sisters
23:31:08 [bdeal] yes but achilles was willing to let her die too if Aggie would have told him the story from the get go
23:31:22 [AnthonyB] fizzle> type in /show 500 [that's slash plus the word 'show' plus spacwe plus the number 500] and you'll see all the chat that's been going on, and more
23:31:26 [Cimmerian] that is an interesting idea, he does get quite chivalrous with Iphigenia in Iphigenia at Aulis
23:31:28 [JamieMatts] Maybe they're sort of the same person.
23:31:58 CrystalC. enters this room
23:32:10 [phalone] more juxtaposition of characters in related positions, maybe.
23:32:25 [AnthonyB] Hi there, Crystal! Welcome!
23:32:35 [CrystalC.] hello
23:32:43 [Cimmerian] maybe symbolically JamieMatts, but Polyxena is a trojan and Iphigenia a greek
23:33:01 [AnthonyB] Why a virgin? Why Artemis?....???
23:33:11 [jhandcock] polyxena is iphigenia's trojan counterpart
23:33:59 [phalone] she's the patron of maidens...so she has power to both bestow and take away
23:34:10 [phalone] --->artemis
23:34:21 [bdeal] but polyxena is the daughter of the leader of the trojans....just like iphigenia is the daughter of the leader of the greeks!
23:34:32 [AnthonyB] Any human sacrifices to other gods?
23:35:42 [phalone] are any of the other gods patrons of certain people?
23:36:05 [phalone] human sacrifice to the god of wine seems forced
23:36:40 [jhandcock] does anyone know the story behind polyxena's sacrifice (i.e. to whom and for what reason)?
23:36:47 [bdeal] Artemis wants someone to be sacrifice who is is like her, and she is known for her Virginity
23:36:58 [bdeal] so a virgin is mandatory
23:37:10 [Cimmerian] I believe it was for the ghost of Achilles
23:37:31 japalapa enters this room
23:38:01 [AnthonyB] Greetings, japalapa! Welcome!
23:38:08 [bdeal] she was sacrificed to Apollo
23:38:48 [jhandcock] i just found something that says agamemnon was against the sacrifice of polyxena, too!
23:38:54 [jhandcock] i'm likin' this guy more and more...
23:38:55 [Cimmerian] what did you all think of the difference in Clytemnestra in Iphigenia at Aulis, contrasted with Clytemnestra as Ted Bundy in Agamemnon?
23:39:23 [bdeal] at Achilles tomb, No, she was to marry Achilles but Paris kille him and proclaimed that Polyxena was to be sacrifced at his grave
23:39:35 dncrcait exits from this room
23:40:40 [phalone] clytemnestra's role is so easy to warp to different driving forces...
23:40:52 [bdeal] is Polyxena a priestess of Apollo? y was she needed to make the sacrifice to him?
23:41:03 bkramer enters this room
23:41:30 [JamieMatts] Well, Clytemnestra seemed a little coniving in Iphigenia, with the fawning and flattering of Achilles.
23:41:47 [Cimmerian] In Iphigenia at Aulis she comes across as a loving mother, and when we find out that Agamemnon killed her first husband and child we wonder how she ever made love to him
23:41:58 [AnthonyB] Hi there, Ben! Welcome!
23:42:50 [phalone] now now, we just know she bore him children...love may have nothing to do with it.
23:43:01 [Cimmerian] she did flatter and fawn, but then, she was probably resorting to anything to save Iphigenia
23:43:07 [kitchen] wasn't clytemnestra forced to marry agamemnon?
23:43:10 [phalone] she was dutiful
23:43:56 [phalone] her cunning and passion stand out in any rendition of her story
23:44:10 [bdeal] how can u love the killer of your first husband anyway...she hd nochoice but to do what he said untill she decides to kill him, u can only push a Greek woman so far before they nap!
23:44:14 [bdeal] snap*
23:44:39 [jhandcock] i have an image of her as a pretty authoritative woman, but when it comes down to it, she has no power
23:44:39 [phalone] before they nap, too.
23:44:41 [JamieMatts] Maybe she never really liked her first husband.
23:44:48 [phalone] ; )
23:44:48 [bkramer] Thanks
23:44:57 al enters this room
23:45:09 [Cimmerian] yeah, Odysseus is always napping at crucial times!
23:45:16 [phalone] killing your husband isn't power?
23:45:24 [AnthonyB] Hi there, Al! Welcome!
23:45:37 [al] hi!
23:45:57 [jhandcock] she takes it in the end, you're right
23:46:12 [jhandcock] or her daughter did...
23:46:56 [phalone] lol
23:47:43 [Cimmerian] jess, you said she has no power, it made me think that she is like Medea...no power, but total power in that their husbands end up dead
23:47:57 [Olympian] Can throw out another question. How come Menelaus wanted to kill Helen?
23:48:15 [bdeal] when was this????
23:48:43 [Olympian] In the trojan women
23:48:44 [JamieMatts] Helen started a Ten-Year war.
23:48:47 [jhandcock] i missed that one, too
23:49:06 [jhandcock] and, Cimmerian, i like your point about medea
23:49:16 [bdeal] i guess we should get started on thet huh jess!
23:49:38 [jhandcock] yeah... whoops!
23:49:44 [phalone] plus medea and clytem. were both kidnapped from their homelands, of sorts
23:50:23 [lchen] Helen? kidnapped?
23:50:23 [Cimmerian] Olympian...I think because he believes that she wanted to be with Paris, not that she had been forced against her will. That is what Hecuba argues in the play, but Helen denies this
23:50:50 [phalone] but medea kills her kids to get back at her husband, while clytem. kills her husband to avenge her kid
23:51:02 [bdeal] did anyone get a chance to trace back Odysseus' family tree???
23:51:19 [Olympian] Then, was the reason for fighting the war, was it to get back at paris or helen
23:51:40 [lchen] both
23:52:00 [lchen] Paris for stealing the wife, and Helen for agreeing to leave I guess
23:52:14 [phalone] bdeal> yeah, how far did you want? i got to aeolus
23:52:30 [bdeal] how ever far u got i guess...
23:52:44 [Cimmerian] good question, I think it was to defend the honor of all Greek women from ever being abducted, Helen is merely a stand-in, although many would probably disagree with me on this
23:53:26 [jhandcock] no, i agree
23:53:33 [jhandcock] as does iphigenia at aulis
23:53:37 [phalone] his actual dad may be sisyphus...if you trace backward form laertes, though, you get laertes>arcesius>cephalus>aeolus
23:53:38 [JamieMatts] Well, its the oath all Helen's suitors took.
23:53:41 [Olympian] It sounded weird that Menelaus wanted to kill her after ten years of fighting
23:53:49 [JamieMatts] That's why they had to go to war.
23:53:51 [AnthonyB] [And don't forget that the way the Argive men, the chorus, see it in the Agamemnon, is that the greatest offence was against hospitality (xenia)]
23:54:47 [bdeal] yes i knew about Sisyphus
23:55:19 [phalone] crazy genealogies
23:55:27 [lchen] the oath didn't make it so that they "had" to go to war... more like they "could" go to war, or had the potential to
23:55:50 [AnthonyB] [bad enough stealing a woman, but stealing the wife of your *host*...!
23:56:05 [JamieMatts] No, they had to.
23:56:27 [jhandcock] "host" ?
23:56:29 [bdeal] thanks Phalone
23:56:32 [JamieMatts] Odysseus didn't want to fight.
23:56:49 [phalone] sure, no prob!
23:56:51 [Olympian] He had to avenge the fact that Paris disobeyed xenia
23:56:55 [bdeal] he tried to play a crazy man!
23:57:05 [jhandcock] that's true, it didn't seem as though he had a choice
23:57:12 [jhandcock] and he didn't give achilles one
23:57:22 [Cimmerian] I think Sisyphus stole Helios cattle, and then tattled about something, so he gets to push that rock up a hill forever in hell...the Greeks really came up with poetic justice in terms of sentences in hell...like Tantalos' punishment
23:57:53 [AnthonyB] lchen, I think if any of us had taken that oath we would also have felt we had no choice - does anyone know how the oath was administered?
23:58:01 [lchen] what was that?
23:58:18 [lchen] it was administered by the father right?
23:58:19 [bdeal] wasnt it proposed by Odysseus himself?
23:58:37 [bdeal] he told Tyndarius
23:58:57 [AnthonyB] yes....
23:59:02 [JamieMatts] Yeah, but he didn't think someone would actually steal Helen.
23:59:19 [lchen] but, the suiters themselves wouldn't wnat to go to troy by themselves voluntarily. they needed to be rallied... so if Menelaus wanted to go to war, he knew that he had a ready fleet
23:59:48 [phalone] so why make an oath, when you could use extortion for something else?
--------- The messages that have been sent today start below ---------
00:00:18 [phalone] you think helen's safe, why redoubly protect her?
00:00:19 al exits from this room
00:00:39 [phalone] cuz of the face to lauch 1000 ships?
00:00:45 amiroh enters this room
00:01:16 [JamieMatts] Not many people would fight all the Achians just to get a wife.
00:01:18 [AnthonyB] Hi there, amiroh! Welcome!
00:01:19 [bdeal] and what did the wives think about their husbands going to war for some other chick????
00:01:46 [smlwong] hmm.. you could take clytemnestra's view on the issue
00:01:59 [smlwong] she was quite angry
00:02:05 [phalone] the husbands probably said they were going to war for honor, or xenia, or something not "a hot chick"
00:02:11 [Olympian] Have a nice night everyone.
00:02:17 Olympian exits from this room
00:02:17 [lchen] and she had to sacrifice more than just a husband for 20 years
00:02:21 [bdeal] lol
00:02:33 [kitchen] or u could take penelope's where she was just somewhat in denial
00:02:34 [AnthonyB]
The oath: Tyndareus chopped up a horse and then had each of Helen's suitors stand on the (raw) parts when they swore their oath..... 
00:02:40 amiroh exits from this room
00:02:52 [bdeal] hahahahha
00:03:00 [jhandcock] what does that achieve?
00:03:06 [Cimmerian] oh my, what is that all about..gross!
00:03:13 [bdeal] ewwwww......what does that mean
00:03:27 [AnthonyB] (Try to figure out what *that's* about!)
00:03:50 [AnthonyB] But I think you'd hesitate not to keep that oath, wouldn't you?
00:04:00 [phalone] AAAHHH! so many riddles!
00:04:38 [kitchen] shouldn't we assume by now that most oaths that are sworn need to be followed through otherwise there are nasty repercussions?
00:04:41 [lchen] an experience so horrifying you'd have to remember it forever...if not for the oath, then for the time you stood on raw horse parts? :-/
00:04:47 [Cimmerian] I am a computer idiot and not all that familiar with the internet, what does it mean when you put asterisks around a word?
00:04:54 [bdeal] grrek myths full of em!
00:05:00 [AnthonyB] .... have to check in on one loose end before we start to break up: Odysseus' father....
00:05:29 [bdeal] Latertes? or Sisyphus?
00:05:30 [AnthonyB] [I'm just trying to put in emphasis - not very effectively, though)
00:05:50 [AnthonyB] Right: Laertes or Sisyphus?
00:05:50 [Cimmerian] thank you
00:06:34 [AnthonyB] How was it Sisyphus? in the accounts that suggest that it may have been?
00:06:40 [phalone] we can't know....
00:07:03 [jhandcock] Sisyphus!
00:07:12 [phalone] sisyphus had a quickie affair with laertes' wife
00:07:27 [bdeal] lol
00:07:34 [bdeal] nicely put!
00:07:36 [AnthonyB] Right! why?
00:08:04 [jhandcock] his mother married Sisyphus, then Laertes
00:08:17 [phalone] because of a cattle/stealing thing? i'm fuzzy on the details
00:08:55 [AnthonyB] Yes - Sisyphus the cattle-rustler (and Laertes)...
00:09:09 [Cimmerian] I read that he "ravished" Odysseus' mother
00:09:13 [AnthonyB] ..... revenge......
00:10:15 [AnthonyB] so this one (unlike some other dual parentage possibilities) wasn't bi-lateral marriage, but active violation and degrading
00:10:30 [phalone] sisyphus "begot" on his brother's wife in return for cattle-stealing!
00:10:34 [Cimmerian] Anticlea (Odysseus' mom) is also the daughter of the great con-man Autolycus
00:10:55 [phalone] like old-time jerry springer, all these affairs
00:11:02 [AnthonyB] Yes, Cimmerian - and what sort of figure is Sisyphus?
00:11:06 [bdeal] lol
00:11:48 [Cimmerian] well, we know he likes to ravish women, he also violated Tyro
00:12:47 [phalone] he's tricky, too
00:12:53 [phalone] tricked hades twice
00:12:56 [AnthonyB] Yes! (a) he's an almost professional corrupter of women, (b) he's also a professional con man - the con man of all con men!
00:13:32 [phalone] yay sleuthing!
00:13:38 [jhandcock] a regular prince charming...
00:13:43 [phalone] so what does it all *mean*?
00:13:56 [Cimmerian] It's funny, Shakespeare gives a con-man in the Winter's Tale the name Autolycus, if I recall correctly
00:14:19 [AnthonyB] Shakespeare knew his Greek Mythology.....
00:14:30 [AnthonyB] (had a good book on it....)
00:15:00 [Cimmerian] boy, did he, Hermione is in that play as well (Helen's daughter)
00:15:10 [AnthonyB] Remember, that's partly why Sisyphus ends up as one of the great sinners in the underworld: for being such a con man.
00:15:29 [phalone] so is sisyphus where odysseus got his cunningness?
00:15:45 [Cimmerian] I love his punishment, I think we all push that rock over and over to some extent in our lives
00:16:01 [phalone] and his affair opportunities? ; )
00:16:23 [phalone] what does the rock have to do with his crimes, though?
00:16:43 [phalone] women, cattle, conning....rock?
00:16:43 [AnthonyB] So you can 'read' Odysseus as either a descendant of Autolycus, a great trickster and maybe even descendant of Hermes, or son of the biggest sinner in this area.... (and corrupter of women....)
00:17:23 [Cimmerian] hmm...good question...he never gets anywhere...but maybe we all enjoy pushing our rocks, even if they go nowhere
00:17:55 [AnthonyB] ..the punishments often do fit the crime...
00:18:24 [AnthonyB] ... Tantalus surrounded by food and drink...
00:18:29 [Cimmerian] Sarte said something like: we all get the war that we deserve
00:18:31 [phalone] moral=womanizing is a dead-end road?
00:19:21 [Cimmerian] but everytime I see a paraplegic I don't believe that Sarte was right
00:19:24 [AnthonyB] That rock is more a Repetition than a 'Dead-end'!
00:19:29 [phalone] or he coasted so much, living on other people's goods, that now he has to go uphill forever?
00:20:33 [phalone] *thinking*
00:21:26 [phalone] ....i'm flailing for the "repetition" in sisyphus' predicament....
00:22:25 [AnthonyB] ? the rock rolls all the way back down again, as soon as you get it to the top...?
00:23:25 [phalone] nononono, the punishment i get. i meant the corresponding repetition in his lifetime to merit the punishment?
00:24:36 [JamieMatts] Maybe since he never settled down, he just kept persuing new affairs.
00:24:37 [phalone] and i have no one left to help me out!
00:25:07 [phalone] hmmm...okay...
00:25:14 [smlwong] why was he punished?
00:25:21 [smlwong] what did he do to anger the gods?
00:25:24 [Cimmerian] maybe his affairs were a "repitition compulsion"
00:25:52 [phalone] wasn't the offense that he tricked hades and persephone?
00:26:12 [Cimmerian] then again, maybe I am over-analyzing Sisyphus!
00:26:19 [JamieMatts] Excessivness offends the gods.
00:26:23 [smlwong] so maybe.. repetition
00:26:30 [JamieMatts] Good or Bad.
00:26:32 [smlwong] in that.. he's repeatedly tricked
00:26:44 [phalone] no such thing as over-analyzing in greek myth ; )
00:26:51 [smlwong] just when he thinks his task is accomplished, he finds out it's started all over again
00:30:24 [phalone] ***ouch ouch ouch*** my brain is overstretched!
00:30:32 Lamia enters this room
00:30:45 [phalone] maybe i should call it quits
00:31:02 [AnthonyB] I don't (yet?) have a completely satisfactory answer for why a boulder, but it seems to me it must have to do with his crime of having cheated death
00:31:31 [AnthonyB] ... he was rolling the rock up the hill so he could then let it go down the other side...
00:31:57 [Cimmerian] how did he cheat death?
00:32:07 [AnthonyB] ...instead, he can never get it to go over the top, so has to go back and retrieve it all over again... so he is really trapped this time...
00:32:09 [lchen] maybe all through his life, he was actively engaged in tasks that he thought were meaningful, but to the Gods human existance is meaningless and is void of higher purpose. So, perhaps, his death, maybe one of the most dramatic of all still reflects this view from the gods
00:32:24 [lchen] and is ultimately depicted as this hopeless task
00:32:29 [lchen] maybe I am way off.....
00:33:03 [phalone] handcuffed hades for a while, tricked persephone into letting him back to the upper world
00:33:05 [AnthonyB] Except, lchen, that Sisyphus *is* also a great achiever: he is the great founder of Corinth, for example...
00:33:35 [Cimmerian] wow! we are getting metaphysical here...maybe our lives are no more significant than, say, a moth
00:33:41 [lchen] okay
00:33:49 [smlwong] he cheats death so he gets cheated out of completion of his task?
00:33:53 [lchen] haha, I don't know
00:33:54 [AnthonyB] Cimmerian, he locked up Thanatos (and then no-one could die!)
00:34:00 [lchen] it was just a random stab
00:34:21 [AnthonyB] Then he talked his way out of Hades - charmed Persephone...
00:35:12 [AnthonyB] One last observation: the Greeks had a very different view of their Founding Fathers than we do
00:35:34 [phalone] maybe the rock is a punishment for great achievers, then: he always got what he wanted, and now he never does, never will
00:35:48 [AnthonyB] All the great Founders were also great Sinners.... (we'll be looking into this some more a bit later in the term).
00:35:54 [Cimmerian] he did, this guy is amazing, hmm, what would that say about Freud's idea of Thanatos: the death instinct?
00:36:26 [Lamia] That's not really fair that all the great founders were sinners
00:36:27 [AnthonyB] You know - I should really get going: have some writing to finish off....
00:36:52 [Lamia] I mean, the Gods had everything to themselves
00:37:01 [phalone] thanks so much for all the insight, professor!
00:37:04 [AnthonyB]
Ah, but when was the reality of Greek Myth 'fair'....?
00:37:11 [phalone] *and everyone
00:37:27 [Cimmerian] we are all sinners....goodnight fellow sinners...and thank you!
00:37:40 [AnthonyB] Everyone did it for themselves - great buzz tonight!
00:37:52 [Lamia] Good night Professor
00:37:54 [JamieMatts] The gods were sinners too.
00:37:58 [phalone] thanks
00:38:09 Cimmerian exits from this room
00:38:19 [phalone] good night all
00:38:26 [AnthonyB] See you all Tuesday.
00:38:32 JamieMatts exits from this room
00:38:42 phalone exits from this room
00:38:55 [japalapa] didn't contribute anything =(
00:39:00 [japalapa] but read all!
00:39:01 [japalapa] )
00:39:05 [Lamia] That's okay
00:39:32 [Lamia] I just sorta came in now, and caught the butt of it all
00:40:02 [windracer] haha, bye!
00:40:05 windracer exits from this room
00:40:13 [Lamia] Night
00:40:37 [Lamia] japalapa, wanna discuss something with me a bit?
00:41:18 [jhandcock] g'nite all