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00:53:46 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth waves to jhandcock
00:53:23 [Stephiroth] doot de doo
00:52:04 jhandcock enters this room
00:51:19 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth waits for a little bit
00:51:11 [Stephiroth] and if there's no one else here... I think I'll leave, too...
00:50:40 MeganD exits from this room
00:50:38 [MeganD] bye
00:50:34 [Stephiroth] take care!
00:50:24 [Stephiroth] kk no problems!
00:50:17 [Stephiroth] heh... and it's natural that women generally are more... "settled" than men are in those terms.. they nest and stay there
00:50:13 [MeganD] It's been fun!
00:50:09 [MeganD] Sorry to leave you, but I still have hw to do
00:49:34 [Stephiroth] yeah
00:49:23 [MeganD] Maybe this goes back to what prof said about long distance relationships, she was there and all
00:48:40 [MeganD] Yeah
00:48:27 [Stephiroth] obviously she wasn't as important as getting home
00:48:14 [Stephiroth] but was it more than that?
00:48:07 [Stephiroth] I think he appreciated what she did for him
00:47:56 [Stephiroth] yeah
00:47:44 [MeganD] She really loved him
00:47:31 [MeganD] In the book O says that Kalypso befriended him and took care of him
00:46:35 [Stephiroth] gehhh it's just hard to say what is and isn't morale and why
00:45:56 [Stephiroth] i mean, he didn't have to sleep with her, obviously, but was he obligated to stay with her
00:45:40 [Stephiroth] did she make him stay with her?
00:45:22 [Stephiroth] i do wonder about Kalypso though
00:45:11 [Stephiroth] no he couldn't
00:45:06 [Stephiroth] lol
00:44:56 [MeganD] Very true
00:44:52 [MeganD] He had an obligation to his men, plus he couldn't get home if he was a pug :-)
00:44:29 [Stephiroth] i mean, how can you get around that?
00:44:18 [Stephiroth] basically telling him that Circe would be harmless once he's naked with her
00:44:17 [MeganD] Yeah, O didn't have much of a choice
00:44:00 [Stephiroth] given the context of Hermes' message to O
00:43:50 [Stephiroth] and i saw it as something that was sort of necessary
00:43:35 [Stephiroth] exactly!
00:43:32 [Stephiroth] right...
00:43:29 [MeganD] O slept with Circe but he never forgot about his obligations at home
00:43:13 [MeganD] Fidelity seemed to be more mental, if you know what i mean
00:42:58 [Stephiroth] as illustrated by Odysseus
00:42:46 [Stephiroth] apparently not... though the bindings of marriage and children and home WERE
00:42:21 [MeganD] Well, sex wasn't as huge a deal as it is now, it would seem
00:42:05 [Stephiroth] @@
00:42:03 [Stephiroth] it's really confusing
00:41:53 [Stephiroth] though i really wonder what was considered "morale" in those days and what wasn't
00:41:42 [MeganD] Ditto ;-)
00:41:30 [Stephiroth] yeah... i was doing that at first then realized the mistake
00:41:20 [Stephiroth] *nods*
00:41:12 [MeganD] I think people try to measure things in terms of modern morality, and you really can't
00:41:04 [Stephiroth] i don't think everyone or anyone has really come up with an agreement
00:40:52 >[Admin] Welcome to our chat. Please obey the net etiquette while chatting: try to be pleasant and polite.
00:40:39 [Stephiroth] what did you think about the whole morality issue?
00:40:09 [MeganD] hahaha
00:39:52 [Stephiroth] woo hoo!
00:39:48 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth looks around
00:39:45 [MeganD] Me
00:39:34 [Stephiroth] who's left?
00:39:24 MaryEllen exits from this room
00:39:20 [MeganD] 'night
00:39:10 [Stephiroth] g'night!
00:39:09 [MaryEllen] good night Stephiroth!
00:38:45 [Eurydice] G'night all, I'm off as well.
00:38:44 [Stephiroth] wow, people are leaving left and right
00:38:36 wmshort exits from this room
00:38:33 [Stephiroth] good night Mary Ellen!
00:38:20 [MaryEllen] my son wants the computer. good night all, it has been fun
00:38:20 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth waves
00:38:10 [AnthonyB]
Fun chat! Be well, everyone - chase that Odyssey, and I'll see you Tuesday!
00:38:06 [Eurydice] Because men are expected to establish a line and a household. Women not so much.
00:38:02 [Stephiroth] I think morality is different for gods
00:37:57 Chimaera exits from this room
00:37:42 [Stephiroth] yes, I remember Calyso's lament
00:37:01 [Stephiroth] ^__^
00:37:00 [Eurydice] Night Professor
00:36:59 [Stephiroth] g'night!
00:36:48 [bdeal] night proff
00:36:48 [MaryEllen] yes, remember Kalypso's lament, that the male gods can take mortal lovers, but she cannot
00:36:46 [Stephiroth] that he kept wanting to return home and such
00:36:40 [MeganD] 'Night Professor!
00:36:34 [Stephiroth] and the facrt
00:36:30 [Stephiroth] right
00:36:21 [Eurydice] I mean, he doesn't even mention the other children, I don't think. That makes things a lot easier in terms of what kind of responsibilites Odysseus had towards those other women.
00:36:21 [AnthonyB] Well - my connection keeps dropping. Maybe that's a sign I should be saying GoodNight. Thanks for coming, everyone!
00:36:19 [bdeal] lol mary
00:35:59 [Stephiroth] though......... amongst the gods I wonder if the double standard holds true
00:35:54 [Eurydice] I think Homer went out of "his" way to clear up a lot of the complications though.
00:35:54 [MaryEllen] don't ask me that, if I were Penelope, I might have turned into Scylla, but 20 years is a long, long, long, long, time!
00:35:31 [Stephiroth] although it is VERY clear about the double standard of men and women
00:35:12 [Stephiroth] that's the feel I get from the Odyssey
00:34:59 [Eurydice] I guess it would depend on the situation.
00:34:56 [Stephiroth] is it just up to each individual to make up their mind about it?
00:34:43 [Stephiroth] so what IS right and what is wrong?
00:34:27 [Chimaera] acute observation
00:33:54 [Stephiroth] very true
00:33:48 [Stephiroth] gehhhh...
00:33:27 [Eurydice] Wives were expected the run the household, concubines to slake the man's lust.
00:33:17 [Stephiroth] nope, because she was in his arms and he was back
00:33:02 [Stephiroth] exactly
00:33:00 [MaryEllen] In fact, Penelope did not seem to mind at all when Odysseus told her of his adventures, including his affairs
00:32:56 [Stephiroth] sometimes make one hate being female sometimes
00:32:44 [Eurydice] Not to do any French bashing or anything, but there is a tradition of the man having a mistress who he can see, provided he treat his wife with respect and never neglect his responsibilites at home.
00:32:43 [Stephiroth] bleghhh
00:32:36 [bdeal] especially when with every city they destoyed they took the womenfolk with them
00:32:16 [Stephiroth] and in different religions as well
00:32:12 [bdeal] nt expected to be faitfull
00:32:07 [Stephiroth] it definitely is
00:32:06 [bdeal] nbc/ affairs were common
00:31:51 [Eurydice] I think that mentality might still be prevalent in a lot of countries.
00:31:47 [Stephiroth] and the expectations are different for the gods, too
00:31:47 [MaryEllen] Penelpe did not seem to mind at all when Odysseus retold his tales, including his affairs
00:31:22 wmshort enters this room
00:31:17 [Stephiroth] women were supposed to be faithful forever and men could go and do whatever as long as their RESPONSIBILITIES were with the home and wife
00:31:02 [MaryEllen] I think definitely so, very different expectations for men and women
00:31:00 [Eurydice] At least that's the model Penelope and Odysseus give us.
00:30:49 [Stephiroth] maybe...
00:30:44 [Eurydice] Women were supposed to stay at home, men were supposed to be war leaders.
00:30:41 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth grumbles
00:30:38 [bdeal] maybe she kept them around so no more would come
00:30:34 [Stephiroth] yeah
00:30:19 [Eurydice] I mean, heck, we have different things expected today.
00:30:04 [Chimaera] or maybe its better to keep multiple suitors fighting and not be forced to marry one who would then have a claim to telemochas' inheritance
00:30:03 [Eurydice] There would have to be.
00:29:58 [Stephiroth] back in Ancient Greek times, I mean
00:29:46 [Stephiroth] were different things expected of men and women in terms of morality?
00:29:04 [Stephiroth] who knows
00:28:50 [MaryEllen] maybe not, maybe she loved having all the attention of the suitors and kept them around on purpose
00:28:49 bkramer exits from this room
00:28:37 [Stephiroth] bye!
00:28:31 JoelMR exits from this room
00:28:28 [JoelMR] toodles
00:28:27 [JoelMR] in any event, i also have to fun
00:28:12 [JoelMR] is penelope really such a boring character....the 'perfect' wife and woman?
00:28:08 [Stephiroth] *snorts* i wonder if "morality" is/was as big of an issue then/now as it is/was back then/now
00:28:05 [Eurydice] I think we make a lot of assumptions about how a character will be based on who their parents were, unconsciously or consciously.
00:27:52 [bkramer] Goodnight everyone... I got homework up the bootaaaayyyy
00:27:09 [Eurydice] See ya, Mont.
00:27:09 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth waves
00:27:04 Mont_Allen exits from this room
00:26:57 [Mont_Allen] Oh, it's getting late. I should go. It's been fun, All. Cheers.
00:26:50 [Stephiroth] but CIRCE
00:26:46 [Stephiroth] and she had to use guile
00:26:41 [Stephiroth] she managed to do both
00:26:30 [Stephiroth] she upheld xenia and upheld her role as O's loyal wife
00:26:05 [JoelMR] penelope also had guile; but she was 'moral'?
00:25:57 [MaryEllen] I don't think it is ok exactly, there are always repurcussions down the line (to kill one's parents)
00:25:57 [Eurydice] It is assumed that because Telemachos looks like his father, he is like his father. I think we assume that he will be heroic as well.
00:25:25 [Stephiroth] but she used it for, I guess you could call it, good things
00:25:18 [Mont_Allen] Huh, are the gods free of the obligations of xenia?
00:25:03 [Stephiroth] and she had guile
00:25:02 [bdeal] to the grreks to kill ur mother b/c she killed ur father is ok
00:24:58 [Stephiroth] like Athena was revered
00:24:51 [Mont_Allen] Yeah, Eurydice, a pre-packaged identity... As Professor Bulloch said in lecture, one's genealogy, one's character, one's life circumstances, and even one's destiny may be seen as various aspects of one single thing: one's life and identity.
00:24:45 [Eurydice] But she's a sorceress with close ties to the gods, so she stands outside the realm of xenia, correct?
00:24:43 [Stephiroth] I think it's a matter of "HOW" the guile is used
00:24:38 [MaryEllen] maybe she transforms them when she eats them
00:24:26 [JoelMR] but, to the greeks, was 'guile' necessarily 'immoral'?
00:24:21 Chimaera enters this room
00:24:16 [MaryEllen] Jacob in the bible, like Odysseus, is also a great trickster, but he is much admired though his behavior is often questionable
00:24:14 [bdeal] lol eurydice
00:24:13 [Stephiroth] ancient Greek
00:24:02 [bdeal] by todays standard or orancient greek?
00:24:00 [Eurydice] Hungry? Why wait? Have a fleshy pig man.
00:23:52 [Stephiroth] good question
00:23:44 [bdeal] WAIT what is considered MORAL?
00:23:33 [Stephiroth] Circe turned the men into pigs right away and in some cases eats them! how is THAT ever moral
00:23:20 mercamp exits from this room
00:23:00 [Stephiroth] at first she isn't moral
00:22:51 [MeganD] Can a sorceress be measured in moral terms? Trickery is her thing...
00:22:50 [Eurydice] But whereas Telemachos' identity is tied primarily to his fathers, the other children are identified more closely with their mothers.
00:22:49 [JoelMR] odysseus is full of guile...is he considered to be moral?
00:22:44 [MaryEllen] Penelope is very "moral" and she has a lot of guile as well
00:22:16 [Stephiroth] she helps him after he "tricks" her so to speak
00:22:01 [Eurydice] But his face is automatically tied in to Odysseus' reputation, which means it represents his family's reputation as well. He has a prepackaged identity.
00:21:56 [raindrop] Chimaera> sup jigga
00:21:49 [Stephiroth] Circe is full of guile... how CAN she be considered moral?
00:21:49 esther enters this room
00:21:45 [MaryEllen] in the end, she does not hold Odysseus against his will, and she does help him
00:21:02 [Eurydice] Yes...Telemachos doesn't even need anything other than his face to prove his identity.
00:20:59 [Stephiroth] but you notice it's always the men who are searching for their identity and never the women?
00:20:52 [AnthonyB] go on, how about the morality of Circe?
00:20:45 [Eurydice] I think "divorce" is more a modern invention for what Jason did.
00:20:45 [raindrop] odysseus left to fight for helen, maybe penelope didn't mind haveing men fight for her
00:20:22 [MaryEllen] In fact, Telemachos is searching for his father and for his manhood because he never had a father around
00:20:21 [Mont_Allen] Interesting that other figures reinforce Telemachos identity for him (and for us) by commenting on how much he actually resembles Odysseus. Perhaps an extension of the idea that identity is not a purely individual thing, it is communally defined and acknowledged.
00:20:19 [JoelMR] does the text imply that Penelope had no other option that to pick one of the suitors?
00:20:14 [Stephiroth] yeah
00:20:05 [smlwong] didn't he also divorce her?
00:19:51 [Eurydice] Jason did something similar with Medea, no? Left her behind with two children.
00:19:40 [Stephiroth] this whole business of "who is my father" seems to be repeated in the family line :-P
00:18:58 raindrop enters this room
00:18:47 [Stephiroth] "who is my father?"
00:18:39 [Stephiroth] Odysseus leaves his children of Circe with the same problem Phaeton had with his identity
00:18:08 [Eurydice] I can't type.
00:18:04 [Eurydice] what, not why
00:18:03 [mercamp] hye just want to be king of ithaca and have the beautif
00:17:56 [cberlett] they gave her the ultimatum and then they agreed to wait untill she was done weaving
00:17:55 [Eurydice] By just up and leaving, why kind of identity does Odysseus leave them with?
00:17:49 [Stephiroth] the suitors just want her to pick one of them
00:17:49 [Mont_Allen] So I figure every other time Odyssues is tempted to forget, to zone out or remain insulated or give up on returning home, it represents ina way a kind of death.
00:17:42 [Eurydice] Yes, but his children are alive, and so they have to have a way to preserve that memory.
00:17:41 [JoelMR] and telemachos as well?
00:17:40 [MaryEllen] we see another side to the sweet Penelope with her blood lust with the suitors, and she calls her maid the "B" word (I am trying to obey the polite rule!)
00:17:34 [Stephiroth] I almost forgot that little detail
00:17:31 [JoelMR] what do the suitors themselves have to say about Penelope and her options?
00:17:22 [cberlett] i think definitely family loyalty
00:17:10 [Mont_Allen] I mean, the shades in Hades remember nothing until they have the blood. To be dead is to finally lose all trace of memory, to forget entirely
00:17:05 [AnthonyB] Was it the maids' sexual behavior, as such, or their family loyalty?
00:17:00 [bdeal] b/c O slept with the maids too??
00:16:42 [Stephiroth] could Penelope have just said no and thrown them out?
00:16:37 [Eurydice] I mean, if xenia lasts through the generations, it would be necessary to prove who your father or grandfather was, not just for going to visit, but also for stuff like marriage as well.
00:16:37 [Mont_Allen] Nice, Eurydice. Yeah, the theme of remembering and forgetting plays such a huge role in this story...
00:16:20 [Stephiroth] was that allowed?
00:16:19 [MaryEllen] Yes, and what he did to the maids because they slept with the suitors, he seems to want sexual control of them as well
00:16:04 [JoelMR] right, but she could have just said 'no', right?
00:15:54 [Eurydice] Something they can use to establish an identity and past. That would be especially important with xenia, no?
00:15:41 [Stephiroth] she bided her time... she weaved and such
00:15:31 [cberlett] and look at what he did to his servants for being unfaithful!
00:15:27 [JoelMR] i'm not implying she was sleeping with them....
00:15:24 [Stephiroth] and that's how he proved himself to her in the end
00:15:19 [Eurydice] Responsibility? I would imagine it would be to provide his children with evidence of their paternity, at the very least.
00:15:18 [JoelMR] was xenia the only reason she kept them around though?
00:15:10 [Stephiroth] yeah
00:14:54 [Mont_Allen] Yeah, Joel, she never slept with any of them: we know this for sure because only Odysseus knew what his and her bed actually looked like (that is, built around a tree)...
00:14:35 [MaryEllen] you're right bdeal
00:14:33 [Stephiroth] i guess that goes to show how much O really thought of Circe
00:14:31 [cberlett] agamemnon was fround upon...in that he was killed my his then wife and her lover his nephew
00:14:31 [AnthonyB] Eurydice, how do you think 'responsibility' would have been defined in the world and terms of the Odyssey?
00:14:07 [Stephiroth] that was because of xenia though!
00:14:04 [bdeal] thats society maryellen
00:14:03 [Eurydice] I mean, birth control or not, a man has some kind of responsibility to his children, no?
00:13:57 [cberlett] and the paternity of sons was crucial...especially the first borne
00:13:56 [Stephiroth] stupid double standards
00:13:52 [Stephiroth] yeah
00:13:49 [JoelMR] well, penelope was faithful in that she never slept with anyone else, but didn't she allow a houseful of suitors to stay atround....
00:13:49 [Chimaera] Agamemnon returns with a concubine, and that isn't looked down upon
00:13:40 [MaryEllen] It was a BIG issue that Penelope stay faithful, but not Odysseus
00:13:34 [Stephiroth] that's another good question
00:13:33 [Eurydice] I don't think fidelity is necessarily an issue, but wouldn't children be?
00:13:26 [bdeal] was it enough time to have really become attached?
00:13:20 [Stephiroth] *cough*no birth control*cough*
00:13:11 [cberlett] or like animalstic urges or somehting
00:13:09 [AnthonyB] Why do we assume that Fidelity was a big issue, or as big an issue, in, say, 1200 BC? or 800 BC?
00:13:09 [bdeal] how long were O and Penelope together before the trojan war started anyway
00:12:59 [cberlett] circe reduced them both into animals
00:12:52 [Stephiroth] and the fact that Penelope remained faithful forever epitomizes her as the one of highest morality and the "perfect" woman
00:12:48 [mercamp] isn't he told not to tell penelope anything anyway?
00:12:47 [Eurydice] But these are obviously more than one-night stands if he spends an extended amount of time with these women and fathers children on them.
00:12:46 [cberlett] perhaps the greeks looked at odysseus' relation shipt with circe to be equilvilent to the transformation of his men into pigs
00:12:46 [JoelMR] kidding of course
00:12:35 [JoelMR] write that one down guys....just in case your girlfriend ever catches you out of bounds...
00:12:29 [MaryEllen] How about what the greeks did in troy...is that moral?
00:12:13 [Stephiroth] right...
00:11:55 [Mont_Allen] ...that returning to Penelope and his oikos/community on Ithaca is what matters above all else for him. His affairs along the way don't detract from his home-bound desire; they underscore it.
00:11:54 [Stephiroth] Circe was in awe
00:11:53 [AnthonyB] .... and is it so easy to reach for a moral judgement? Think about men and societies at war.... War children and all that...
00:11:40 [Eurydice] Calypso adored him. Circe was just...in awe of him? I don't know, it just seems easier to imagine Circe as a one-night stand.
00:11:21 [Mont_Allen] I can't help but think that Kalypso and Circe represent something like a 'one-night-stand', if you'll figure the perhaps vulgar example: exciting for a moment, perhaps, but ultimately rather unsatisfying. And so by presenting Odysseus's 'one-night stand', it actually underscores the fact...
00:11:06 [Eurydice] And in any case, if Odysseus was going to establish a temporary relationship to make up for what he lacked, it would make more sense to do that with Calypso.
00:11:06 [Stephiroth] Apollo just has rotten luck with women, period
00:10:54 [AnthonyB] Eurydice! I didn't say 'should'! I just commented on how difficult it can be....
00:10:28 [Stephiroth] LOL I totally understand Eurydice
00:10:19 [MaryEllen] I think Cassandra promised to make love to Apollo so he gave her the gift of prophecy, but then she did not follow through, so he made it that no one would ever believe her
00:10:13 [Stephiroth] good question
00:10:08 [bdeal] ha ha ha Euridyce!
00:09:58 [Stephiroth] although that's more suitable of a thought for Calypso than for Circe
00:09:55 [bdeal] and he was at kalypso's the longest
00:09:54 [AnthonyB] cberlett? Worth repeating...
00:09:53 [JoelMR] was he always so eager to leave as he was when we first meet him in the odyssey?
00:09:50 [Mont_Allen] I can't help but think that *we* are the odd ones. I mean, why should we expect that deities exhibit heightened moral sense? Monotheistic systems so often figure divinity as something morally perfect, but polytheistic systems seldom do.
00:09:48 [Eurydice] Hey! I'm in a long distance relationship, and I'm not sure I want my boyfriend scouting around for a substitute.
00:09:44 [Stephiroth] or physical company
00:09:41 [cberlett] but then why did he leave kalypso?
00:09:37 [bdeal] he slept with kalypso!
00:09:36 [JoelMR] yes, even if you can excuse O. with Circe, what about his life with Calypso?
00:09:31 [cberlett] thats true
00:09:29 [bdeal] he needed a subsitute
00:09:13 [Stephiroth] Hermes said that she would be more or less harmless once in bed
00:09:04 [AnthonyB] [Maybe I shouldn't say this, but.... C'mon, guys: most of you know how difficult even a one-year long-distance relationship can be in college - how about 15 years or more away at war?!]
00:09:01 [Stephiroth] exactly!
00:08:51 [Eurydice] I suppose it's one of those necessary "evils" that Odysseus has to endure because of the gods, since Hermes did tell him to sleep with her, kinda.
00:08:48 [cberlett] i think that is the question before we can delve into moral issues
00:08:44 [smlwong] but wasn't she cursed to not be believed? so how does that happen?
00:08:39 [MaryEllen] He wants to escape a little....he wanted to hear the Sirens' song
00:08:37 [cberlett] did he WANT to sleep with circe? or was it to get his men back?
00:08:23 [cberlett] my question is
00:08:23 [smlwong] um.. this is off topic.. but my roommate pointed out to me that in Oresteia, somewhere around line 1200, the chorus tells cassandra that they believe her
00:08:12 [Stephiroth] though it does raise the question of what's right and wrong
00:08:03 [Eurydice] I totally agree, cberlett. It'd be different if he was looking to escape from reality.
00:07:59 [Stephiroth] he slept with Circe cause he more or less had to to survive
00:07:46 [Stephiroth] so no, I don't think he ditched her at all
00:07:38 [cberlett] he was trying to get back home
00:07:32 Dncrcait exits from this room
00:07:30 [cberlett] but odysseus didn't want to escape reality
00:07:30 [Stephiroth] Hermes had told him that Circe would be harmless once he bedded with her
00:07:21 [JoelMR] seems weird to me too, but did it seem weird to the greeks?
00:07:18 [AnthonyB] Yes, did O. 'ditch' his wife there?
00:07:16 [Stephiroth] no, he slept with Circe as a matter of course
00:07:09 [MeganD] Eurydice, maybe that goes back to the whole "escape from reality" concept?
00:07:02 bdeal enters this room
00:07:00 [Stephiroth] much better!
00:06:59 [Eurydice] I mean, it wasn't as if he was intending to remain, but so long as he's there, it's okay to sleep around? That seems a little weird to me.
00:06:58 [cberlett] he went to go fulfill a moral obligation by fighting in the war
00:06:56 [Stephiroth] the gods don't play by the mortals' rules, obviously
00:06:55 bdeal exits from this room
00:06:49 [Mont_Allen] Thanks, Anthony. The green's a tad difficult to read. Perhaps blue?
00:06:39 [cberlett] i would hardly say odysseus ditched his wife
00:06:37 [Eurydice] Well, temporarily, I suppose.
00:06:23 [AnthonyB] [that was 'look good'
00:06:23 [Stephiroth] right... and he has no qualms about leaving Calypso either
00:06:19 [JoelMR] did odysseus really 'ditch' his wife though?
00:06:07 ilana exits from this room
00:06:02 [Eurydice] And yet, he has no qualms whatsoever about ditching Circe and his children.
00:06:00 [AnthonyB]
Hey, Mont! I never knew! You look in green (as well as black and red) too!
00:05:53 [Stephiroth] how about when Hephaestus caught his wife in bed with the other god and Poseidon laughed it off?
00:05:40 [Eurydice] You've got Odysseus basically ditching his faithful wife Penelope to get down and dirty with Circe, even get her pregnant with multiple children.
00:05:15 [MeganD] Doesn't seem like the gods play by moral rules, at any rate
00:05:14 [Stephiroth] you know how the Cyclops asked Poseidon to avenge his blindness?
00:05:13 [Mont_Allen] I'm enjoying this. My first chat-room experience ever.
00:05:11 [MaryEllen] Circe is not moral, but she is very entertaining. Penelope is a beautiful archetype for fidelity, but she is a little dry
00:05:06 [AnthonyB] What are the clues, signals? for how we are to 'read' Circe morally? from an ancient Greek point of view? how will she have been seen by Odysseus?
00:04:59 [Eurydice] I mean, okay, she turns people into animals, but she's a sorceress; that's what they do!
00:04:56 [Stephiroth] here's an interesting question I have...
00:04:45 [Stephiroth] so is the mortal bound by morality and the gods and goddesses arent?
00:04:37 [Eurydice] Well...I don't think Circe's done as bad a job of it as Odysseus.
00:04:35 [bdeal] tru\
00:04:23 [Stephiroth] i mean, if Odysseus wasn't warned by Hermes, he would have been transformed and prolly eaten also
00:04:16 [bdeal] shes a "goddess"
00:04:12 [MeganD] Didn't Circe kill her husband?
00:03:51 [Stephiroth] but yeah, talk about the morality of Circe!
00:03:45 [AnthonyB] Morality of Circe?
00:03:14 [Stephiroth] *a lot
00:03:12 [Stephiroth] but seriously... i think people tend to focus on the main character when they read, so they question the protagonist's actions and morality and whatnot a not
00:03:10 [bdeal] lol
00:03:05 [Chimaera] lol i was thinkin the same thing
00:02:53 [AnthonyB] Well, cberlett, Ino's son was transfigured, really: immortalised
00:02:49 [Eurydice] Chicken of the Sea, Odyssey style.
00:02:38 [Stephiroth] hehehehe
00:02:28 [Stephiroth] i hope it isn't?
00:02:23 [Eurydice] Can't eat the pigs since they're actually people. Can't eat the cows because it'll incur the wrath of the gods...guess that leaves good ol' tuna fish and chicken.
00:02:22 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth laughs at the idea of the morality of eating one's guests
00:02:00 [cberlett] while her son died
00:01:56 [ilana] is it moral to eat one's guests?
00:01:56 [Dncrcait] it seems like the people who he encounters who happen to be the children of the gods are exempt from the standard morals
00:01:50 [Stephiroth] right, and if he wasn't, regardless of xenia, he would have been turned into one and slaughtered, too
00:01:47 [cberlett] or ino who survived death
00:01:40 [AnthonyB] Yes, MaryEllen. An interesting combination: pigs on the one island, then cattle-eaters on the next
00:01:36 [MaryEllen] Cyclops only has one eye, maybe he has limited moral vision
00:01:29 [ilana] how about cyclopes?
00:01:21 [bdeal] odysseus men werent watched by the gods.. only he was
00:01:11 [cberlett] near death of almost being slautered as pigs
00:01:07 [Stephiroth] is SHE moral?
00:00:53 [Stephiroth] well, like Circe :-P
00:00:41 [ilana] helios' cattle
00:00:40 [Stephiroth] OUCH
00:00:32 [AnthonyB] OK - don't get personal! I think I asked earlier: people often get off on the morality of Odysseus - what about the morality of the people O. encounters?
00:00:22 [MaryEllen] So, they go from Circe's island to Hyperion's and eat Circe's grandpa's sacred cattle
00:00:00 [JoelMR] good to know...
23:59:58 [bdeal] and helios is medeas grandfather?
23:59:58 [Stephiroth] yeah
23:59:51 [Eurydice] If Helios is his son.
23:59:41 [Eurydice] Yeah, he'd have to be, no?
23:59:39 [Stephiroth] ohh?
23:59:28 [AnthonyB] I'm very happily using Netscape. Generally find it the best for this chatroom, actually....
23:59:21 [MaryEllen] I read that he was Stephiroth
23:59:12 [Eurydice] Running with the same theme of women and men who don't stick with them too.
23:58:59 [Stephiroth] is Hyperion Circe's grandfather?
23:58:25 [Eurydice] Family sticks together, I guess.
23:58:22 [JoelMR] people still try to use netscape?
23:58:11 mollyhalv exits from this room
23:57:58 [AnthonyB] Yes, Eurydice
23:57:56 [Mont_Allen] Oh, okay! Can't get it to work with Netscape, but Explorer works fine. Well, sorry to be finally getting in on the tail end of all this...
23:57:30 [ilana] i meant medea but made a typo
23:57:23 [AnthonyB] Mont_Allen> you might want to try refreshing your browser
23:57:00 [Eurydice] Because Circe cleanses the Argonauts of the blood crimes when they kill Medea's brothers, right?
23:56:53 [Stephiroth] There's a medusa and a medea -- don't mix them up!
23:56:21 [Eurydice] Medea?
23:56:15 [ilana] medea
23:56:11 [ilana] medesa
23:55:59 [AnthonyB] Aeetes is father of....
23:55:53 [Stephiroth] she definitely is a sorceress
23:55:50 [Eurydice] Pasiphae...she's the mother of the Minotaur.
23:55:43 [ilana] jason gets the fleece from aeetes
23:55:09 [AnthonyB] There you go!
23:55:06 [MaryEllen] I am sorry, I noticed that question too late. Circe is sister of Aeetes and Pasiphae, but I have no clue who they are!
23:55:01 [mollyhalv] i guess the evil witchiness runs in the family
23:54:47 [Stephiroth] yeuch
23:54:34 [MeganD] she is Medea's aunt
23:54:15 [ilana] ?
23:54:05 [ilana] perse
23:54:03 [Stephiroth] hehehehehe
23:53:58 [Stephiroth] her mother is Perseis?
23:53:47 [Eurydice] Hehe, mad cow...well, if you were going to turn into a burger, might as well take some other people out with you.
23:53:35 [AnthonyB] anyone figured out any more of Circe's relatives?
23:53:33 [mollyhalv] my thoughts exactly : )
23:53:20 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth dies laughing
23:53:20 [Eurydice] Yeah...it's kinda like...a highly addictive pain killer. Used in controlled doses, and it helps you recover from an ailment. Used too much and it debilitates you.
23:53:05 [MaryEllen] and give us all mad cow
23:52:59 [Stephiroth] "goddess" as she is called in the book
23:52:48 [mollyhalv] get turned into burgers
23:52:46 [Stephiroth] well, she herself is some sort of divinity...
23:52:40 [MaryEllen] and in fact, the men did come out better, circe made them more handsome
23:52:35 [bdeal] where do the drugs come from ...do they get them from some other divinity?
23:52:24 [Stephiroth] never come out at all?
23:52:22 [Eurydice] Worst case scenario, they wallow in their own primal nature and never recover.
23:52:20 [Stephiroth] lol
23:52:18 [Stephiroth] and the worst case?
23:52:04 [Eurydice] Best case scenario, it has a cathartic effect and they come out better than ever.
23:51:46 [Eurydice] I mean, you have a woman who is encouraging men to get in touch with their primal side, reducing them to a more basic state.
23:51:42 [MaryEllen] Circe's drug, if I recall correctly, was like the lotus-eaters' drug, and Helen's drug, in that they all cause men to forget
23:51:13 [Stephiroth] but the other sailors that used to pass through her island
23:51:03 [Stephiroth] not Odysseus' men, obviously
23:50:52 [Stephiroth] I read somewhere that Circe turned the men to pigs and slaughtered them
23:50:37 [Stephiroth] maybe they did...?
23:50:25 [Eurydice] Yeah, that's creepy too!
23:50:17 [Eurydice] ?
23:50:16 [Stephiroth] Or flying in a plane called Icarus :-P
23:50:11 [Eurydice] Well, couldn't you see that as a madam giving the johns hallucenogens or strange aphrodisiacs.
23:50:06 [AnthonyB]
But maybe they did enjoy themselves....
23:49:53 [Stephiroth] yeah, I'd be spooked
23:49:45 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth laughs at Eurydice
23:49:32 [Stephiroth] thanks!
23:49:31 [Mont_Allen] Hello everyone, sorry to be late joining.
23:49:23 [Stephiroth] Well, Circe is a sorceress who uses potions/medicines and turns men into animals, pigs in particular... i don't really see how that would be a bordello if the men aren't exactly enjoying themselves
23:49:06 [AnthonyB] [Tip: for 'latecomers' - if you type in /show 500 [i.e. slash + the word show then gap and a number, it will show you that number of lines in your browser, including all the past lines before you arrived.)
23:48:56 Mont_Allen enters this room
23:48:49 [Eurydice] Rather ironic that Phaethon should get a carriage named after him. I would think it'd be a little eerie for whoever was riding in it.
23:48:07 [Stephiroth] lol
23:47:50 [AnthonyB] Well, we've got two themes going: Circe in the bordello, and Helios Phaethon etc.
23:47:12 [Dncrcait] i have a question: how far does xenia reach? is it common to accept and convoy a fugitive on one's ship, like Odysseus and Theoklymenos?
23:46:42 [Stephiroth] I'm getting myself confused @@
23:46:34 [mollyhalv] kinda like with zeus and the sister of ino..mortals don't know what's good for them
23:46:33 [Stephiroth] err chariot
23:46:32 [MeganD] and Robert Graves said he wanted to impress his sisters
23:46:31 [Eurydice] Trying to blur the lines between being a god and being godlike...dangerous sort of affair.
23:46:27 [Stephiroth] and of course, Helios gave in, although he DID warn Phaeton that he wouldn't be able to handle the horses
23:46:01 [Stephiroth] and it was like "you can prove to me that you're my father if..."
23:45:52 [MeganD] *pestering
23:45:38 [MeganD] Yeah, he'd been perstering Helios about it, I think
23:44:52 Mont enters this room
23:44:17 [Stephiroth] and Helios allowed him one wish -- to drive the