[Note: times are recorded EST, not PST.] Win Gate 6.0.4
Please read from the bottom of the page up. Win Gate 6.0.4
00:53:46 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth waves to jhandcockWin Gate 6.0.4
00:53:23 [Stephiroth] doot de dooWin Gate 6.0.4
00:52:04 jhandcock enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:51:19 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth waits for a little bitWin Gate 6.0.4
00:51:11 [Stephiroth] and if there's no one else here... I think I'll leave, too...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:50:40 MeganD exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:50:38 [MeganD] byeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:50:34 [Stephiroth] take care!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:50:24 [Stephiroth] kk no problems!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:50:17 [Stephiroth] heh... and it's natural that women generally are more... "settled" than men are in those terms.. they nest and stay thereWin Gate 6.0.4
00:50:13 [MeganD] It's been fun!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:50:09 [MeganD] Sorry to leave you, but I still have hw to doWin Gate 6.0.4
00:49:34 [Stephiroth] yeahWin Gate 6.0.4
00:49:23 [MeganD] Maybe this goes back to what prof said about long distance relationships, she was there and allWin Gate 6.0.4
00:48:40 [MeganD] YeahWin Gate 6.0.4
00:48:27 [Stephiroth] obviously she wasn't as important as getting homeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:48:14 [Stephiroth] but was it more than that?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:48:07 [Stephiroth] I think he appreciated what she did for himWin Gate 6.0.4
00:47:56 [Stephiroth] yeahWin Gate 6.0.4
00:47:44 [MeganD] She really loved himWin Gate 6.0.4
00:47:31 [MeganD] In the book O says that Kalypso befriended him and took care of himWin Gate 6.0.4
00:46:35 [Stephiroth] gehhh it's just hard to say what is and isn't morale and whyWin Gate 6.0.4
00:45:56 [Stephiroth] i mean, he didn't have to sleep with her, obviously, but was he obligated to stay with herWin Gate 6.0.4
00:45:40 [Stephiroth] did she make him stay with her?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:45:22 [Stephiroth] i do wonder about Kalypso thoughWin Gate 6.0.4
00:45:11 [Stephiroth] no he couldn'tWin Gate 6.0.4
00:45:06 [Stephiroth] lolWin Gate 6.0.4
00:44:56 [MeganD] Very trueWin Gate 6.0.4
00:44:52 [MeganD] He had an obligation to his men, plus he couldn't get home if he was a pug :-)Win Gate 6.0.4
00:44:29 [Stephiroth] i mean, how can you get around that?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:44:18 [Stephiroth] basically telling him that Circe would be harmless once he's naked with herWin Gate 6.0.4
00:44:17 [MeganD] Yeah, O didn't have much of a choiceWin Gate 6.0.4
00:44:00 [Stephiroth] given the context of Hermes' message to OWin Gate 6.0.4
00:43:50 [Stephiroth] and i saw it as something that was sort of necessaryWin Gate 6.0.4
00:43:35 [Stephiroth] exactly!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:43:32 [Stephiroth] right...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:43:29 [MeganD] O slept with Circe but he never forgot about his obligations at homeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:43:13 [MeganD] Fidelity seemed to be more mental, if you know what i meanWin Gate 6.0.4
00:42:58 [Stephiroth] as illustrated by OdysseusWin Gate 6.0.4
00:42:46 [Stephiroth] apparently not... though the bindings of marriage and children and home WEREWin Gate 6.0.4
00:42:21 [MeganD] Well, sex wasn't as huge a deal as it is now, it would seemWin Gate 6.0.4
00:42:05 [Stephiroth] @@Win Gate 6.0.4
00:42:03 [Stephiroth] it's really confusingWin Gate 6.0.4
00:41:53 [Stephiroth] though i really wonder what was considered "morale" in those days and what wasn'tWin Gate 6.0.4
00:41:42 [MeganD] Ditto ;-)Win Gate 6.0.4
00:41:30 [Stephiroth] yeah... i was doing that at first then realized the mistakeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:41:20 [Stephiroth] *nods*Win Gate 6.0.4
00:41:12 [MeganD] I think people try to measure things in terms of modern morality, and you really can'tWin Gate 6.0.4
00:41:04 [Stephiroth] i don't think everyone or anyone has really come up with an agreementWin Gate 6.0.4
00:40:52 >[Admin] Welcome to our chat. Please obey the net etiquette while chatting: try to be pleasant and polite.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:40:39 [Stephiroth] what did you think about the whole morality issue?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:40:09 [MeganD] hahahaWin Gate 6.0.4
00:39:52 [Stephiroth] woo hoo!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:39:48 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth looks aroundWin Gate 6.0.4
00:39:45 [MeganD] MeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:39:34 [Stephiroth] who's left?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:39:24 MaryEllen exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:39:20 [MeganD] 'nightWin Gate 6.0.4
00:39:10 [Stephiroth] g'night!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:39:09 [MaryEllen] good night Stephiroth!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:38:45 [Eurydice] G'night all, I'm off as well.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:38:44 [Stephiroth] wow, people are leaving left and rightWin Gate 6.0.4
00:38:36 wmshort exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:38:33 [Stephiroth] good night Mary Ellen!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:38:20 [MaryEllen] my son wants the computer. good night all, it has been funWin Gate 6.0.4
00:38:20 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth wavesWin Gate 6.0.4
00:38:10 [AnthonyB]
Fun chat! Be well, everyone - chase that Odyssey, and I'll see you Tuesday! Win Gate 6.0.4
00:38:06 [Eurydice] Because men are expected to establish a line and a household. Women not so much.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:38:02 [Stephiroth] I think morality is different for godsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:37:57 Chimaera exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:37:42 [Stephiroth] yes, I remember Calyso's lamentWin Gate 6.0.4
00:37:01 [Stephiroth] ^__^Win Gate 6.0.4
00:37:00 [Eurydice] Night ProfessorWin Gate 6.0.4
00:36:59 [Stephiroth] g'night!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:36:48 [bdeal] night proffWin Gate 6.0.4
00:36:48 [MaryEllen] yes, remember Kalypso's lament, that the male gods can take mortal lovers, but she cannotWin Gate 6.0.4
00:36:46 [Stephiroth] that he kept wanting to return home and suchWin Gate 6.0.4
00:36:40 [MeganD] 'Night Professor!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:36:34 [Stephiroth] and the facrtWin Gate 6.0.4
00:36:30 [Stephiroth] rightWin Gate 6.0.4
00:36:21 [Eurydice] I mean, he doesn't even mention the other children, I don't think. That makes things a lot easier in terms of what kind of responsibilites Odysseus had towards those other women.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:36:21 [AnthonyB] Well - my connection keeps dropping. Maybe that's a sign I should be saying GoodNight. Thanks for coming, everyone!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:36:19 [bdeal] lol maryWin Gate 6.0.4
00:35:59 [Stephiroth] though......... amongst the gods I wonder if the double standard holds trueWin Gate 6.0.4
00:35:54 [Eurydice] I think Homer went out of "his" way to clear up a lot of the complications though.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:35:54 [MaryEllen] don't ask me that, if I were Penelope, I might have turned into Scylla, but 20 years is a long, long, long, long, time!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:35:31 [Stephiroth] although it is VERY clear about the double standard of men and womenWin Gate 6.0.4
00:35:12 [Stephiroth] that's the feel I get from the OdysseyWin Gate 6.0.4
00:34:59 [Eurydice] I guess it would depend on the situation.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:34:56 [Stephiroth] is it just up to each individual to make up their mind about it?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:34:43 [Stephiroth] so what IS right and what is wrong?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:34:27 [Chimaera] acute observationWin Gate 6.0.4
00:33:54 [Stephiroth] very trueWin Gate 6.0.4
00:33:48 [Stephiroth] gehhhh...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:33:27 [Eurydice] Wives were expected the run the household, concubines to slake the man's lust.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:33:17 [Stephiroth] nope, because she was in his arms and he was backWin Gate 6.0.4
00:33:02 [Stephiroth] exactlyWin Gate 6.0.4
00:33:00 [MaryEllen] In fact, Penelope did not seem to mind at all when Odysseus told her of his adventures, including his affairsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:32:56 [Stephiroth] sometimes make one hate being female sometimesWin Gate 6.0.4
00:32:44 [Eurydice] Not to do any French bashing or anything, but there is a tradition of the man having a mistress who he can see, provided he treat his wife with respect and never neglect his responsibilites at home.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:32:43 [Stephiroth] bleghhhWin Gate 6.0.4
00:32:36 [bdeal] especially when with every city they destoyed they took the womenfolk with themWin Gate 6.0.4
00:32:16 [Stephiroth] and in different religions as wellWin Gate 6.0.4
00:32:12 [bdeal] nt expected to be faitfullWin Gate 6.0.4
00:32:07 [Stephiroth] it definitely isWin Gate 6.0.4
00:32:06 [bdeal] nbc/ affairs were commonWin Gate 6.0.4
00:31:51 [Eurydice] I think that mentality might still be prevalent in a lot of countries.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:31:47 [Stephiroth] and the expectations are different for the gods, tooWin Gate 6.0.4
00:31:47 [MaryEllen] Penelpe did not seem to mind at all when Odysseus retold his tales, including his affairsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:31:22 wmshort enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:31:17 [Stephiroth] women were supposed to be faithful forever and men could go and do whatever as long as their RESPONSIBILITIES were with the home and wifeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:31:02 [MaryEllen] I think definitely so, very different expectations for men and womenWin Gate 6.0.4
00:31:00 [Eurydice] At least that's the model Penelope and Odysseus give us.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:30:49 [Stephiroth] maybe...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:30:44 [Eurydice] Women were supposed to stay at home, men were supposed to be war leaders.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:30:41 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth grumblesWin Gate 6.0.4
00:30:38 [bdeal] maybe she kept them around so no more would comeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:30:34 [Stephiroth] yeahWin Gate 6.0.4
00:30:19 [Eurydice] I mean, heck, we have different things expected today.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:30:04 [Chimaera] or maybe its better to keep multiple suitors fighting and not be forced to marry one who would then have a claim to telemochas' inheritanceWin Gate 6.0.4
00:30:03 [Eurydice] There would have to be.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:29:58 [Stephiroth] back in Ancient Greek times, I meanWin Gate 6.0.4
00:29:46 [Stephiroth] were different things expected of men and women in terms of morality?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:29:04 [Stephiroth] who knowsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:28:50 [MaryEllen] maybe not, maybe she loved having all the attention of the suitors and kept them around on purposeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:28:49 bkramer exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:28:37 [Stephiroth] bye!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:28:31 JoelMR exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:28:28 [JoelMR] toodlesWin Gate 6.0.4
00:28:27 [JoelMR] in any event, i also have to funWin Gate 6.0.4
00:28:12 [JoelMR] is penelope really such a boring character....the 'perfect' wife and woman?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:28:08 [Stephiroth] *snorts* i wonder if "morality" is/was as big of an issue then/now as it is/was back then/nowWin Gate 6.0.4
00:28:05 [Eurydice] I think we make a lot of assumptions about how a character will be based on who their parents were, unconsciously or consciously.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:27:52 [bkramer] Goodnight everyone... I got homework up the bootaaaayyyyWin Gate 6.0.4
00:27:09 [Eurydice] See ya, Mont.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:27:09 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth wavesWin Gate 6.0.4
00:27:04 Mont_Allen exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:26:57 [Mont_Allen] Oh, it's getting late. I should go. It's been fun, All. Cheers.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:26:50 [Stephiroth] but CIRCEWin Gate 6.0.4
00:26:46 [Stephiroth] and she had to use guileWin Gate 6.0.4
00:26:41 [Stephiroth] she managed to do bothWin Gate 6.0.4
00:26:30 [Stephiroth] she upheld xenia and upheld her role as O's loyal wifeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:26:05 [JoelMR] penelope also had guile; but she was 'moral'?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:25:57 [MaryEllen] I don't think it is ok exactly, there are always repurcussions down the line (to kill one's parents)Win Gate 6.0.4
00:25:57 [Eurydice] It is assumed that because Telemachos looks like his father, he is like his father. I think we assume that he will be heroic as well.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:25:25 [Stephiroth] but she used it for, I guess you could call it, good thingsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:25:18 [Mont_Allen] Huh, are the gods free of the obligations of xenia?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:25:03 [Stephiroth] and she had guileWin Gate 6.0.4
00:25:02 [bdeal] to the grreks to kill ur mother b/c she killed ur father is okWin Gate 6.0.4
00:24:58 [Stephiroth] like Athena was reveredWin Gate 6.0.4
00:24:51 [Mont_Allen] Yeah, Eurydice, a pre-packaged identity... As Professor Bulloch said in lecture, one's genealogy, one's character, one's life circumstances, and even one's destiny may be seen as various aspects of one single thing: one's life and identity.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:24:45 [Eurydice] But she's a sorceress with close ties to the gods, so she stands outside the realm of xenia, correct?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:24:43 [Stephiroth] I think it's a matter of "HOW" the guile is usedWin Gate 6.0.4
00:24:38 [MaryEllen] maybe she transforms them when she eats themWin Gate 6.0.4
00:24:26 [JoelMR] but, to the greeks, was 'guile' necessarily 'immoral'?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:24:21 Chimaera enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:24:16 [MaryEllen] Jacob in the bible, like Odysseus, is also a great trickster, but he is much admired though his behavior is often questionableWin Gate 6.0.4
00:24:14 [bdeal] lol eurydiceWin Gate 6.0.4
00:24:13 [Stephiroth] ancient GreekWin Gate 6.0.4
00:24:02 [bdeal] by todays standard or orancient greek?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:24:00 [Eurydice] Hungry? Why wait? Have a fleshy pig man.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:23:52 [Stephiroth] good questionWin Gate 6.0.4
00:23:44 [bdeal] WAIT what is considered MORAL?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:23:33 [Stephiroth] Circe turned the men into pigs right away and in some cases eats them! how is THAT ever moralWin Gate 6.0.4
00:23:20 mercamp exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:23:00 [Stephiroth] at first she isn't moralWin Gate 6.0.4
00:22:51 [MeganD] Can a sorceress be measured in moral terms? Trickery is her thing...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:22:50 [Eurydice] But whereas Telemachos' identity is tied primarily to his fathers, the other children are identified more closely with their mothers.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:22:49 [JoelMR] odysseus is full of guile...is he considered to be moral?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:22:44 [MaryEllen] Penelope is very "moral" and she has a lot of guile as wellWin Gate 6.0.4
00:22:16 [Stephiroth] she helps him after he "tricks" her so to speakWin Gate 6.0.4
00:22:01 [Eurydice] But his face is automatically tied in to Odysseus' reputation, which means it represents his family's reputation as well. He has a prepackaged identity.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:21:56 [raindrop] Chimaera> sup jiggaWin Gate 6.0.4
00:21:49 [Stephiroth] Circe is full of guile... how CAN she be considered moral?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:21:49 esther enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:21:45 [MaryEllen] in the end, she does not hold Odysseus against his will, and she does help himWin Gate 6.0.4
00:21:02 [Eurydice] Yes...Telemachos doesn't even need anything other than his face to prove his identity.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:20:59 [Stephiroth] but you notice it's always the men who are searching for their identity and never the women?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:20:52 [AnthonyB] go on, how about the morality of Circe?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:20:45 [Eurydice] I think "divorce" is more a modern invention for what Jason did.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:20:45 [raindrop] odysseus left to fight for helen, maybe penelope didn't mind haveing men fight for herWin Gate 6.0.4
00:20:22 [MaryEllen] In fact, Telemachos is searching for his father and for his manhood because he never had a father aroundWin Gate 6.0.4
00:20:21 [Mont_Allen] Interesting that other figures reinforce Telemachos identity for him (and for us) by commenting on how much he actually resembles Odysseus. Perhaps an extension of the idea that identity is not a purely individual thing, it is communally defined and acknowledged.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:20:19 [JoelMR] does the text imply that Penelope had no other option that to pick one of the suitors?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:20:14 [Stephiroth] yeahWin Gate 6.0.4
00:20:05 [smlwong] didn't he also divorce her?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:19:51 [Eurydice] Jason did something similar with Medea, no? Left her behind with two children.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:19:40 [Stephiroth] this whole business of "who is my father" seems to be repeated in the family line :-PWin Gate 6.0.4
00:18:58 raindrop enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:18:47 [Stephiroth] "who is my father?"Win Gate 6.0.4
00:18:39 [Stephiroth] Odysseus leaves his children of Circe with the same problem Phaeton had with his identityWin Gate 6.0.4
00:18:08 [Eurydice] I can't type.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:18:04 [Eurydice] what, not whyWin Gate 6.0.4
00:18:03 [mercamp] hye just want to be king of ithaca and have the beautifWin Gate 6.0.4
00:17:56 [cberlett] they gave her the ultimatum and then they agreed to wait untill she was done weavingWin Gate 6.0.4
00:17:55 [Eurydice] By just up and leaving, why kind of identity does Odysseus leave them with?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:17:49 [Stephiroth] the suitors just want her to pick one of themWin Gate 6.0.4
00:17:49 [Mont_Allen] So I figure every other time Odyssues is tempted to forget, to zone out or remain insulated or give up on returning home, it represents ina way a kind of death.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:17:42 [Eurydice] Yes, but his children are alive, and so they have to have a way to preserve that memory.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:17:41 [JoelMR] and telemachos as well?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:17:40 [MaryEllen] we see another side to the sweet Penelope with her blood lust with the suitors, and she calls her maid the "B" word (I am trying to obey the polite rule!)Win Gate 6.0.4
00:17:34 [Stephiroth] I almost forgot that little detailWin Gate 6.0.4
00:17:31 [JoelMR] what do the suitors themselves have to say about Penelope and her options?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:17:22 [cberlett] i think definitely family loyaltyWin Gate 6.0.4
00:17:10 [Mont_Allen] I mean, the shades in Hades remember nothing until they have the blood. To be dead is to finally lose all trace of memory, to forget entirelyWin Gate 6.0.4
00:17:05 [AnthonyB] Was it the maids' sexual behavior, as such, or their family loyalty?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:17:00 [bdeal] b/c O slept with the maids too??Win Gate 6.0.4
00:16:42 [Stephiroth] could Penelope have just said no and thrown them out?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:16:37 [Eurydice] I mean, if xenia lasts through the generations, it would be necessary to prove who your father or grandfather was, not just for going to visit, but also for stuff like marriage as well.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:16:37 [Mont_Allen] Nice, Eurydice. Yeah, the theme of remembering and forgetting plays such a huge role in this story...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:16:20 [Stephiroth] was that allowed?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:16:19 [MaryEllen] Yes, and what he did to the maids because they slept with the suitors, he seems to want sexual control of them as wellWin Gate 6.0.4
00:16:04 [JoelMR] right, but she could have just said 'no', right?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:15:54 [Eurydice] Something they can use to establish an identity and past. That would be especially important with xenia, no?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:15:41 [Stephiroth] she bided her time... she weaved and suchWin Gate 6.0.4
00:15:31 [cberlett] and look at what he did to his servants for being unfaithful!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:15:27 [JoelMR] i'm not implying she was sleeping with them....Win Gate 6.0.4
00:15:24 [Stephiroth] and that's how he proved himself to her in the endWin Gate 6.0.4
00:15:19 [Eurydice] Responsibility? I would imagine it would be to provide his children with evidence of their paternity, at the very least.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:15:18 [JoelMR] was xenia the only reason she kept them around though?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:15:10 [Stephiroth] yeahWin Gate 6.0.4
00:14:54 [Mont_Allen] Yeah, Joel, she never slept with any of them: we know this for sure because only Odysseus knew what his and her bed actually looked like (that is, built around a tree)...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:14:35 [MaryEllen] you're right bdealWin Gate 6.0.4
00:14:33 [Stephiroth] i guess that goes to show how much O really thought of CirceWin Gate 6.0.4
00:14:31 [cberlett] agamemnon was fround upon...in that he was killed my his then wife and her lover his nephewWin Gate 6.0.4
00:14:31 [AnthonyB] Eurydice, how do you think 'responsibility' would have been defined in the world and terms of the Odyssey?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:14:07 [Stephiroth] that was because of xenia though!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:14:04 [bdeal] thats society maryellenWin Gate 6.0.4
00:14:03 [Eurydice] I mean, birth control or not, a man has some kind of responsibility to his children, no?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:13:57 [cberlett] and the paternity of sons was crucial...especially the first borneWin Gate 6.0.4
00:13:56 [Stephiroth] stupid double standardsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:13:52 [Stephiroth] yeahWin Gate 6.0.4
00:13:49 [JoelMR] well, penelope was faithful in that she never slept with anyone else, but didn't she allow a houseful of suitors to stay atround....Win Gate 6.0.4
00:13:49 [Chimaera] Agamemnon returns with a concubine, and that isn't looked down uponWin Gate 6.0.4
00:13:40 [MaryEllen] It was a BIG issue that Penelope stay faithful, but not OdysseusWin Gate 6.0.4
00:13:34 [Stephiroth] that's another good questionWin Gate 6.0.4
00:13:33 [Eurydice] I don't think fidelity is necessarily an issue, but wouldn't children be?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:13:26 [bdeal] was it enough time to have really become attached?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:13:20 [Stephiroth] *cough*no birth control*cough*Win Gate 6.0.4
00:13:11 [cberlett] or like animalstic urges or somehtingWin Gate 6.0.4
00:13:09 [AnthonyB] Why do we assume that Fidelity was a big issue, or as big an issue, in, say, 1200 BC? or 800 BC?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:13:09 [bdeal] how long were O and Penelope together before the trojan war started anywayWin Gate 6.0.4
00:12:59 [cberlett] circe reduced them both into animalsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:12:52 [Stephiroth] and the fact that Penelope remained faithful forever epitomizes her as the one of highest morality and the "perfect" womanWin Gate 6.0.4
00:12:48 [mercamp] isn't he told not to tell penelope anything anyway?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:12:47 [Eurydice] But these are obviously more than one-night stands if he spends an extended amount of time with these women and fathers children on them.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:12:46 [cberlett] perhaps the greeks looked at odysseus' relation shipt with circe to be equilvilent to the transformation of his men into pigsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:12:46 [JoelMR] kidding of courseWin Gate 6.0.4
00:12:35 [JoelMR] write that one down guys....just in case your girlfriend ever catches you out of bounds...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:12:29 [MaryEllen] How about what the greeks did in troy...is that moral?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:12:13 [Stephiroth] right...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:11:55 [Mont_Allen] ...that returning to Penelope and his oikos/community on Ithaca is what matters above all else for him. His affairs along the way don't detract from his home-bound desire; they underscore it.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:11:54 [Stephiroth] Circe was in aweWin Gate 6.0.4
00:11:53 [AnthonyB] .... and is it so easy to reach for a moral judgement? Think about men and societies at war.... War children and all that...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:11:40 [Eurydice] Calypso adored him. Circe was just...in awe of him? I don't know, it just seems easier to imagine Circe as a one-night stand.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:11:21 [Mont_Allen] I can't help but think that Kalypso and Circe represent something like a 'one-night-stand', if you'll figure the perhaps vulgar example: exciting for a moment, perhaps, but ultimately rather unsatisfying. And so by presenting Odysseus's 'one-night stand', it actually underscores the fact...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:11:06 [Eurydice] And in any case, if Odysseus was going to establish a temporary relationship to make up for what he lacked, it would make more sense to do that with Calypso.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:11:06 [Stephiroth] Apollo just has rotten luck with women, periodWin Gate 6.0.4
00:10:54 [AnthonyB] Eurydice! I didn't say 'should'! I just commented on how difficult it can be....Win Gate 6.0.4
00:10:28 [Stephiroth] LOL I totally understand EurydiceWin Gate 6.0.4
00:10:19 [MaryEllen] I think Cassandra promised to make love to Apollo so he gave her the gift of prophecy, but then she did not follow through, so he made it that no one would ever believe herWin Gate 6.0.4
00:10:13 [Stephiroth] good questionWin Gate 6.0.4
00:10:08 [bdeal] ha ha ha Euridyce!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:09:58 [Stephiroth] although that's more suitable of a thought for Calypso than for CirceWin Gate 6.0.4
00:09:55 [bdeal] and he was at kalypso's the longestWin Gate 6.0.4
00:09:54 [AnthonyB] cberlett? Worth repeating...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:09:53 [JoelMR] was he always so eager to leave as he was when we first meet him in the odyssey?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:09:50 [Mont_Allen] I can't help but think that *we* are the odd ones. I mean, why should we expect that deities exhibit heightened moral sense? Monotheistic systems so often figure divinity as something morally perfect, but polytheistic systems seldom do.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:09:48 [Eurydice] Hey! I'm in a long distance relationship, and I'm not sure I want my boyfriend scouting around for a substitute.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:09:44 [Stephiroth] or physical companyWin Gate 6.0.4
00:09:41 [cberlett] but then why did he leave kalypso?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:09:37 [bdeal] he slept with kalypso!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:09:36 [JoelMR] yes, even if you can excuse O. with Circe, what about his life with Calypso?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:09:31 [cberlett] thats trueWin Gate 6.0.4
00:09:29 [bdeal] he needed a subsituteWin Gate 6.0.4
00:09:13 [Stephiroth] Hermes said that she would be more or less harmless once in bedWin Gate 6.0.4
00:09:04 [AnthonyB] [Maybe I shouldn't say this, but.... C'mon, guys: most of you know how difficult even a one-year long-distance relationship can be in college - how about 15 years or more away at war?!]Win Gate 6.0.4
00:09:01 [Stephiroth] exactly!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:08:51 [Eurydice] I suppose it's one of those necessary "evils" that Odysseus has to endure because of the gods, since Hermes did tell him to sleep with her, kinda.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:08:48 [cberlett] i think that is the question before we can delve into moral issuesWin Gate 6.0.4
00:08:44 [smlwong] but wasn't she cursed to not be believed? so how does that happen?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:08:39 [MaryEllen] He wants to escape a little....he wanted to hear the Sirens' songWin Gate 6.0.4
00:08:37 [cberlett] did he WANT to sleep with circe? or was it to get his men back?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:08:23 [cberlett] my question isWin Gate 6.0.4
00:08:23 [smlwong] um.. this is off topic.. but my roommate pointed out to me that in Oresteia, somewhere around line 1200, the chorus tells cassandra that they believe herWin Gate 6.0.4
00:08:12 [Stephiroth] though it does raise the question of what's right and wrongWin Gate 6.0.4
00:08:03 [Eurydice] I totally agree, cberlett. It'd be different if he was looking to escape from reality.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:07:59 [Stephiroth] he slept with Circe cause he more or less had to to surviveWin Gate 6.0.4
00:07:46 [Stephiroth] so no, I don't think he ditched her at allWin Gate 6.0.4
00:07:38 [cberlett] he was trying to get back homeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:07:32 Dncrcait exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:07:30 [cberlett] but odysseus didn't want to escape realityWin Gate 6.0.4
00:07:30 [Stephiroth] Hermes had told him that Circe would be harmless once he bedded with herWin Gate 6.0.4
00:07:21 [JoelMR] seems weird to me too, but did it seem weird to the greeks?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:07:18 [AnthonyB] Yes, did O. 'ditch' his wife there?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:07:16 [Stephiroth] no, he slept with Circe as a matter of courseWin Gate 6.0.4
00:07:09 [MeganD] Eurydice, maybe that goes back to the whole "escape from reality" concept?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:07:02 bdeal enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:07:00 [Stephiroth] much better!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:06:59 [Eurydice] I mean, it wasn't as if he was intending to remain, but so long as he's there, it's okay to sleep around? That seems a little weird to me.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:06:58 [cberlett] he went to go fulfill a moral obligation by fighting in the warWin Gate 6.0.4
00:06:56 [Stephiroth] the gods don't play by the mortals' rules, obviouslyWin Gate 6.0.4
00:06:55 bdeal exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:06:49 [Mont_Allen] Thanks, Anthony. The green's a tad difficult to read. Perhaps blue?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:06:39 [cberlett] i would hardly say odysseus ditched his wifeWin Gate 6.0.4
00:06:37 [Eurydice] Well, temporarily, I suppose.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:06:23 [AnthonyB] [that was 'look good'Win Gate 6.0.4
00:06:23 [Stephiroth] right... and he has no qualms about leaving Calypso eitherWin Gate 6.0.4
00:06:19 [JoelMR] did odysseus really 'ditch' his wife though?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:06:07 ilana exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
00:06:02 [Eurydice] And yet, he has no qualms whatsoever about ditching Circe and his children.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:06:00 [AnthonyB]
Hey, Mont! I never knew! You look in green (as well as black and red) too!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:05:53 [Stephiroth] how about when Hephaestus caught his wife in bed with the other god and Poseidon laughed it off?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:05:40 [Eurydice] You've got Odysseus basically ditching his faithful wife Penelope to get down and dirty with Circe, even get her pregnant with multiple children.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:05:15 [MeganD] Doesn't seem like the gods play by moral rules, at any rateWin Gate 6.0.4
00:05:14 [Stephiroth] you know how the Cyclops asked Poseidon to avenge his blindness?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:05:13 [Mont_Allen] I'm enjoying this. My first chat-room experience ever.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:05:11 [MaryEllen] Circe is not moral, but she is very entertaining. Penelope is a beautiful archetype for fidelity, but she is a little dryWin Gate 6.0.4
00:05:06 [AnthonyB] What are the clues, signals? for how we are to 'read' Circe morally? from an ancient Greek point of view? how will she have been seen by Odysseus?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:04:59 [Eurydice] I mean, okay, she turns people into animals, but she's a sorceress; that's what they do!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:04:56 [Stephiroth] here's an interesting question I have...Win Gate 6.0.4
00:04:45 [Stephiroth] so is the mortal bound by morality and the gods and goddesses arent?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:04:37 [Eurydice] Well...I don't think Circe's done as bad a job of it as Odysseus.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:04:35 [bdeal] tru\Win Gate 6.0.4
00:04:23 [Stephiroth] i mean, if Odysseus wasn't warned by Hermes, he would have been transformed and prolly eaten alsoWin Gate 6.0.4
00:04:16 [bdeal] shes a "goddess"Win Gate 6.0.4
00:04:12 [MeganD] Didn't Circe kill her husband?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:03:51 [Stephiroth] but yeah, talk about the morality of Circe!Win Gate 6.0.4
00:03:45 [AnthonyB] Morality of Circe?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:03:14 [Stephiroth] *a lotWin Gate 6.0.4
00:03:12 [Stephiroth] but seriously... i think people tend to focus on the main character when they read, so they question the protagonist's actions and morality and whatnot a notWin Gate 6.0.4
00:03:10 [bdeal] lolWin Gate 6.0.4
00:03:05 [Chimaera] lol i was thinkin the same thingWin Gate 6.0.4
00:02:53 [AnthonyB] Well, cberlett, Ino's son was transfigured, really: immortalisedWin Gate 6.0.4
00:02:49 [Eurydice] Chicken of the Sea, Odyssey style.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:02:38 [Stephiroth] heheheheWin Gate 6.0.4
00:02:28 [Stephiroth] i hope it isn't?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:02:23 [Eurydice] Can't eat the pigs since they're actually people. Can't eat the cows because it'll incur the wrath of the gods...guess that leaves good ol' tuna fish and chicken.Win Gate 6.0.4
00:02:22 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth laughs at the idea of the morality of eating one's guestsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:02:00 [cberlett] while her son diedWin Gate 6.0.4
00:01:56 [ilana] is it moral to eat one's guests?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:01:56 [Dncrcait] it seems like the people who he encounters who happen to be the children of the gods are exempt from the standard moralsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:01:50 [Stephiroth] right, and if he wasn't, regardless of xenia, he would have been turned into one and slaughtered, tooWin Gate 6.0.4
00:01:47 [cberlett] or ino who survived deathWin Gate 6.0.4
00:01:40 [AnthonyB] Yes, MaryEllen. An interesting combination: pigs on the one island, then cattle-eaters on the nextWin Gate 6.0.4
00:01:36 [MaryEllen] Cyclops only has one eye, maybe he has limited moral visionWin Gate 6.0.4
00:01:29 [ilana] how about cyclopes?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:01:21 [bdeal] odysseus men werent watched by the gods.. only he wasWin Gate 6.0.4
00:01:11 [cberlett] near death of almost being slautered as pigsWin Gate 6.0.4
00:01:07 [Stephiroth] is SHE moral?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:00:53 [Stephiroth] well, like Circe :-PWin Gate 6.0.4
00:00:41 [ilana] helios' cattleWin Gate 6.0.4
00:00:40 [Stephiroth] OUCHWin Gate 6.0.4
00:00:32 [AnthonyB] OK - don't get personal! I think I asked earlier: people often get off on the morality of Odysseus - what about the morality of the people O. encounters?Win Gate 6.0.4
00:00:22 [MaryEllen] So, they go from Circe's island to Hyperion's and eat Circe's grandpa's sacred cattleWin Gate 6.0.4
00:00:00 [JoelMR] good to know...Win Gate 6.0.4
23:59:58 [bdeal] and helios is medeas grandfather?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:59:58 [Stephiroth] yeahWin Gate 6.0.4
23:59:51 [Eurydice] If Helios is his son.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:59:41 [Eurydice] Yeah, he'd have to be, no?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:59:39 [Stephiroth] ohh?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:59:28 [AnthonyB] I'm very happily using Netscape. Generally find it the best for this chatroom, actually....Win Gate 6.0.4
23:59:21 [MaryEllen] I read that he was StephirothWin Gate 6.0.4
23:59:12 [Eurydice] Running with the same theme of women and men who don't stick with them too.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:58:59 [Stephiroth] is Hyperion Circe's grandfather?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:58:25 [Eurydice] Family sticks together, I guess.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:58:22 [JoelMR] people still try to use netscape?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:58:11 mollyhalv exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:57:58 [AnthonyB] Yes, EurydiceWin Gate 6.0.4
23:57:56 [Mont_Allen] Oh, okay! Can't get it to work with Netscape, but Explorer works fine. Well, sorry to be finally getting in on the tail end of all this...Win Gate 6.0.4
23:57:30 [ilana] i meant medea but made a typoWin Gate 6.0.4
23:57:23 [AnthonyB] Mont_Allen> you might want to try refreshing your browserWin Gate 6.0.4
23:57:00 [Eurydice] Because Circe cleanses the Argonauts of the blood crimes when they kill Medea's brothers, right?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:56:53 [Stephiroth] There's a medusa and a medea -- don't mix them up!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:56:21 [Eurydice] Medea?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:56:15 [ilana] medeaWin Gate 6.0.4
23:56:11 [ilana] medesaWin Gate 6.0.4
23:55:59 [AnthonyB] Aeetes is father of....Win Gate 6.0.4
23:55:53 [Stephiroth] she definitely is a sorceressWin Gate 6.0.4
23:55:50 [Eurydice] Pasiphae...she's the mother of the Minotaur.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:55:43 [ilana] jason gets the fleece from aeetesWin Gate 6.0.4
23:55:09 [AnthonyB] There you go!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:55:06 [MaryEllen] I am sorry, I noticed that question too late. Circe is sister of Aeetes and Pasiphae, but I have no clue who they are!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:55:01 [mollyhalv] i guess the evil witchiness runs in the familyWin Gate 6.0.4
23:54:47 [Stephiroth] yeuchWin Gate 6.0.4
23:54:34 [MeganD] she is Medea's auntWin Gate 6.0.4
23:54:15 [ilana] ?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:54:05 [ilana] perseWin Gate 6.0.4
23:54:03 [Stephiroth] heheheheheWin Gate 6.0.4
23:53:58 [Stephiroth] her mother is Perseis?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:53:47 [Eurydice] Hehe, mad cow...well, if you were going to turn into a burger, might as well take some other people out with you.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:53:35 [AnthonyB] anyone figured out any more of Circe's relatives?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:53:33 [mollyhalv] my thoughts exactly : )Win Gate 6.0.4
23:53:20 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth dies laughingWin Gate 6.0.4
23:53:20 [Eurydice] Yeah...it's kinda like...a highly addictive pain killer. Used in controlled doses, and it helps you recover from an ailment. Used too much and it debilitates you.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:53:05 [MaryEllen] and give us all mad cowWin Gate 6.0.4
23:52:59 [Stephiroth] "goddess" as she is called in the bookWin Gate 6.0.4
23:52:48 [mollyhalv] get turned into burgersWin Gate 6.0.4
23:52:46 [Stephiroth] well, she herself is some sort of divinity...Win Gate 6.0.4
23:52:40 [MaryEllen] and in fact, the men did come out better, circe made them more handsomeWin Gate 6.0.4
23:52:35 [bdeal] where do the drugs come from ...do they get them from some other divinity?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:52:24 [Stephiroth] never come out at all?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:52:22 [Eurydice] Worst case scenario, they wallow in their own primal nature and never recover.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:52:20 [Stephiroth] lolWin Gate 6.0.4
23:52:18 [Stephiroth] and the worst case?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:52:04 [Eurydice] Best case scenario, it has a cathartic effect and they come out better than ever.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:51:46 [Eurydice] I mean, you have a woman who is encouraging men to get in touch with their primal side, reducing them to a more basic state.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:51:42 [MaryEllen] Circe's drug, if I recall correctly, was like the lotus-eaters' drug, and Helen's drug, in that they all cause men to forgetWin Gate 6.0.4
23:51:13 [Stephiroth] but the other sailors that used to pass through her islandWin Gate 6.0.4
23:51:03 [Stephiroth] not Odysseus' men, obviouslyWin Gate 6.0.4
23:50:52 [Stephiroth] I read somewhere that Circe turned the men to pigs and slaughtered themWin Gate 6.0.4
23:50:37 [Stephiroth] maybe they did...?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:50:25 [Eurydice] Yeah, that's creepy too!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:50:17 [Eurydice] ?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:50:16 [Stephiroth] Or flying in a plane called Icarus :-PWin Gate 6.0.4
23:50:11 [Eurydice] Well, couldn't you see that as a madam giving the johns hallucenogens or strange aphrodisiacs.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:50:06 [AnthonyB]
But maybe they did enjoy themselves.... Win Gate 6.0.4
23:49:53 [Stephiroth] yeah, I'd be spookedWin Gate 6.0.4
23:49:45 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth laughs at EurydiceWin Gate 6.0.4
23:49:32 [Stephiroth] thanks!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:49:31 [Mont_Allen] Hello everyone, sorry to be late joining.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:49:23 [Stephiroth] Well, Circe is a sorceress who uses potions/medicines and turns men into animals, pigs in particular... i don't really see how that would be a bordello if the men aren't exactly enjoying themselvesWin Gate 6.0.4
23:49:06 [AnthonyB] [Tip: for 'latecomers' - if you type in /show 500 [i.e. slash + the word show then gap and a number, it will show you that number of lines in your browser, including all the past lines before you arrived.)Win Gate 6.0.4
23:48:56 Mont_Allen enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:48:49 [Eurydice] Rather ironic that Phaethon should get a carriage named after him. I would think it'd be a little eerie for whoever was riding in it.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:48:07 [Stephiroth] lolWin Gate 6.0.4
23:47:50 [AnthonyB] Well, we've got two themes going: Circe in the bordello, and Helios Phaethon etc.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:47:12 [Dncrcait] i have a question: how far does xenia reach? is it common to accept and convoy a fugitive on one's ship, like Odysseus and Theoklymenos?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:46:42 [Stephiroth] I'm getting myself confused @@Win Gate 6.0.4
23:46:34 [mollyhalv] kinda like with zeus and the sister of ino..mortals don't know what's good for themWin Gate 6.0.4
23:46:33 [Stephiroth] err chariotWin Gate 6.0.4
23:46:32 [MeganD] and Robert Graves said he wanted to impress his sistersWin Gate 6.0.4
23:46:31 [Eurydice] Trying to blur the lines between being a god and being godlike...dangerous sort of affair.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:46:27 [Stephiroth] and of course, Helios gave in, although he DID warn Phaeton that he wouldn't be able to handle the horsesWin Gate 6.0.4
23:46:01 [Stephiroth] and it was like "you can prove to me that you're my father if..."Win Gate 6.0.4
23:45:52 [MeganD] *pesteringWin Gate 6.0.4
23:45:38 [MeganD] Yeah, he'd been perstering Helios about it, I thinkWin Gate 6.0.4
23:44:52 Mont enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:44:17 [Stephiroth] and Helios allowed him one wish -- to drive the chariot, right?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:44:13 [AnthonyB] (and, of course, he has been!)Win Gate 6.0.4
23:44:02 [AnthonyB] and, yes, the mortal husband does often think he's been cuckoldedWin Gate 6.0.4
23:44:00 [Stephiroth] but his mother told him to seek out Helios to ascertain whether or not he was his childWin Gate 6.0.4
23:43:33 [AnthonyB] a not uncommon patternWin Gate 6.0.4
23:43:30 [Stephiroth] ohhhhWin Gate 6.0.4
23:43:18 [AnthonyB] In Phaethon's case, though, it was ambiguous: he had Helios on one side and Merops on the other, to the one motherWin Gate 6.0.4
23:43:08 [Eurydice] I mean...one would think the husband would be more inclined to believe he was cuckolded, rather than his wife was chosen by a god.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:42:41 [Stephiroth] Phaeton had a mortal mother, didn't he?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:42:36 [bkramer] HelloWin Gate 6.0.4
23:42:32 [Eurydice] I find it odd how you can have these mortal couples that can so easily determine that their child is of a divine parentage.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:42:27 [Stephiroth] and Zeus struck him downWin Gate 6.0.4
23:42:23 [AnthonyB] Hi, Ben! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:42:10 [AnthonyB] Similar to Phaethon, though a slightly different variant. Phaethon rather had inordinate aspirations. Got above himself - the immortal part over-reached the mortal sideWin Gate 6.0.4
23:41:42 [ilana] odysseus about helios' cattleWin Gate 6.0.4
23:41:28 [ilana] circe and teiresias both warnWin Gate 6.0.4
23:41:28 bkramer enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:41:20 [AnthonyB] Icarus was son of Daedalus, who invented wings and flying. Icarus, his son, flew too close to the sun and melted the wax. ignored his father's warning.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:40:37 [AnthonyB] bdeal: distinguish between Icarus and Icarius - different peopleWin Gate 6.0.4
23:40:30 [Stephiroth] exactly what questions are we trying to answer?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:39:55 [AnthonyB] Megan, Yes. Though the cattle of the Sun will come after Circe, of courseWin Gate 6.0.4
23:39:29 izzy exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:39:16 [Stephiroth] whoops...Win Gate 6.0.4
23:39:10 [AnthonyB] Yes it does, Dncrcait. though by a different mother, and also with the presence of a mortal father.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:39:08 [MaryEllen] maybe it represents a father wanting to surpress his son's success or a son wanting to usurp his fatherWin Gate 6.0.4
23:38:12 [Stephiroth] and it's not always through betrayal eitherWin Gate 6.0.4
23:38:05 [Stephiroth] no kiddingWin Gate 6.0.4
23:37:42 [MaryEllen] boy, we have a lot of fathers killing sons, and sons killing fathers...seems to repeat often in mythWin Gate 6.0.4
23:37:37 [Stephiroth] Circe herself is supposedly a treacherous person -- to all sailors from what I read about her historyWin Gate 6.0.4
23:37:36 [ilana] aeetes' daughter is medeaWin Gate 6.0.4
23:37:24 [Dncrcait] but they kill his cattle AFTER the incident with CirceWin Gate 6.0.4
23:36:52 [bdeal] isnt icarus penelope's father?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:36:49 [MeganD] Professor, does the Circe situation have anything to do with the fact that Odysseus' men killed Helios' scared cattle? She is Helios' daughterWin Gate 6.0.4
23:36:35 [Stephiroth] phaeton drove the chariot too close to the sun and Zeus struck down the chariot and phaeton so he wouldn't cause anymore dangerWin Gate 6.0.4
23:36:20 [bdeal] icarusWin Gate 6.0.4
23:35:40 [Dncrcait] does that mean her brother isphaeton? the one who flew too close to the sun?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:35:32 [MaryEllen] so that land of fantasy and release became Odysseus' nightmare in that his son ends up killing himWin Gate 6.0.4
23:35:23 [AnthonyB] Greetings, sml! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:35:08 [AnthonyB] Hi there, mercamp! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:35:05 smlwong enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:34:53 [AnthonyB] (Everyone else too.)Win Gate 6.0.4
23:34:42 mercamp enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:34:38 [AnthonyB] (MaryEllen and Ilana: fill out this family a little.)Win Gate 6.0.4
23:33:33 [AnthonyB] Ilana: who is Aeetes' offspring?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:33:19 [Stephiroth] Hermes warned Odysseus about her, telling him her weakness so to sayWin Gate 6.0.4
23:33:12 [AnthonyB] Aha - MaryEllen!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:32:51 [AnthonyB] and let's not ignore what Stephiroth is saying, also.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:32:39 [MaryEllen] I read that in some myth book todayWin Gate 6.0.4
23:32:36 [ilana] her brother is aietesWin Gate 6.0.4
23:32:27 [AnthonyB] Yes, Helios. Who else were children of Helios?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:32:14 [MaryEllen] How about the fact that Circe and Odysseus's son ends up killing OdysseusWin Gate 6.0.4
23:32:12 [ilana] daughter of helios and perse who is the daughter of oceanWin Gate 6.0.4
23:32:07 [Stephiroth] on page 160Win Gate 6.0.4
23:31:59 [Stephiroth] the book said that he was told not to refuse the bed of the "goddess"Win Gate 6.0.4
23:31:19 [AnthonyB] Parents? Siblings? Extended family?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:31:11 [Dncrcait] the daughter of Hermes, right?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:31:10 [MaryEllen] enchantress/witch, daughter of sun god, Helios, killed her first husbandWin Gate 6.0.4
23:30:35 [AnthonyB] and who is she (Circe)?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:30:16 [Stephiroth] what does the name "Circe" mean anyway?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:29:51 [AnthonyB] ... the world of the night, music, artists, sensuality, suspension of the 'rules' of the day for a while - escape... the world of La Boheme, La traviata, Colette etcWin Gate 6.0.4
23:29:46 [Stephiroth] but he was also warned about her by Hermes, remember?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:29:31 [MeganD] So Odysseus stays with Circe to take a break from realityWin Gate 6.0.4
23:29:08 [cberlett] well in that case i would say it was a bordello for odysseus...but i don't think the other men thought it was a good timeWin Gate 6.0.4
23:28:50 [Stephiroth] i noticed a lot of use of "medicines"Win Gate 6.0.4
23:28:30 [ilana] i noticed a lot of cannibalismWin Gate 6.0.4
23:28:15 [AnthonyB] Bordello: think demi-monde, the world of theatre, dance, performance, especially in the 19th century.... (though it can still have those aspects today). glamour, beauty, sensuality, casting aside 'reality' for a while....Win Gate 6.0.4
23:27:35 [Dncrcait] i notices that there sems to be a difference in the rules for the people he encounters- many of whom are children of the godsWin Gate 6.0.4
23:27:16 [cberlett] perhaps the men equate to men at brothels who don't pay thier tabWin Gate 6.0.4
23:27:10 [MaryEllen] problem is, Odysseus says something like "lying together, in the bed of love, we will trust each other, there is an idea of vulnerability, not just sexual releaseWin Gate 6.0.4
23:27:00 [Chimaera] and don't the men stay there for a long time, a year or so?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:27:00 [bdeal] but thats the practice there..xenoWin Gate 6.0.4
23:26:42 [mollyhalv] maybe a rest stop before the harder challenges?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:26:37 [AnthonyB] How about this: some readers today get stuck on the morality of Odysseus.... what about the morality of the people he encounters?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:26:35 [cberlett] but she obviously didn't want them to eat because she turned them into pigsWin Gate 6.0.4
23:26:20 [cberlett] which she does in a way in the form of the foodWin Gate 6.0.4
23:26:07 [cberlett] it seems that for it to equate to a brothel circe would have to be offering them some kind of serviceWin Gate 6.0.4
23:25:47 [MaryEllen] well, you have a point there eurydice!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:25:45 [Stephiroth] I'm going to get my book... brbWin Gate 6.0.4
23:25:20 [Stephiroth] yeah... it doesn't seem to quite followWin Gate 6.0.4
23:25:17 [Eurydice] You get men going in, turning into pigs (metaphorically), but emerging rejuvenated.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:24:57 [Eurydice] I think the idea of Circe's island as a bordello is rather apropos.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:24:50 [mollyhalv] but the rules of xenia assume that the guests will eventually be hosts to the former hosts...Circe is stuck on her island.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:24:45 [bdeal] thanxWin Gate 6.0.4
23:24:44 [Stephiroth] heheheWin Gate 6.0.4
23:24:38 [Stephiroth] lolWin Gate 6.0.4
23:24:38 [MaryEllen] whore houseWin Gate 6.0.4
23:24:37 [Dncrcait]
thanks Win Gate 6.0.4
23:24:33 [AnthonyB] A bordello is a [high class] brothel.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:24:23 [Stephiroth] bordello = haremWin Gate 6.0.4
23:24:18 [izzy] Dncrcait, I think it starts in book XWin Gate 6.0.4
23:24:12 [AnthonyB] Circe is book 10.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:24:08 [bdeal] what is a bordello?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:24:05 [Stephiroth] cause the HOST/ESS does...Win Gate 6.0.4
23:24:01 [cberlett] i agree...i see no fault in their actionsWin Gate 6.0.4
23:23:54 [Stephiroth] i guess notWin Gate 6.0.4
23:23:51 [Stephiroth] or noWin Gate 6.0.4
23:23:49 [ilana] i don't think soWin Gate 6.0.4
23:23:45 [Stephiroth] as guests, they should have, right?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:23:39 [Dncrcait] not according to the rules of xeniaWin Gate 6.0.4
23:23:30 [MeganD] ditto cberlettWin Gate 6.0.4
23:23:21 [AnthonyB] Now, did Odysseus' men misbehave? Were they supposed to give something in return?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:23:15 [Dncrcait] what book does the circe story begin in again?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:23:10 [Stephiroth] but isn't Circe a sorceress to begin with? so who's to say that the food wasn't meant to turn the men into pigs to begin with?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:22:49 [cberlett] although its difficult for me to see that as a bordelloWin Gate 6.0.4
23:22:48 [MaryEllen] and when she turned them back, she made them more handsome than before, she also helped Odysseus in many waysWin Gate 6.0.4
23:22:39 [AnthonyB] Hi, kimmy! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:22:20 [Stephiroth] lolWin Gate 6.0.4
23:22:13 kimmy145 enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:22:04 [mollyhalv] well, she turned them into pigs when they took her food without giving anythin in return. but after odysseus slept with her, she turned them back and treated them like regular guests.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:21:59 [bdeal] thanxWin Gate 6.0.4
23:21:56 [AnthonyB]
(No waving at Eurydice, anyone! Don't want to lose her....Win Gate 6.0.4
23:21:52 [cberlett] helloWin Gate 6.0.4
23:21:46 [Eurydice] Hello everyoneWin Gate 6.0.4
23:21:45 [Stephiroth] i think we're talking about Xenia and the situation between Odysseus and CirceWin Gate 6.0.4
23:21:30 [AnthonyB] Hi there, cberlett! Eurydice! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:21:20 [Stephiroth] I think you did, though i missed that part of the convoWin Gate 6.0.4
23:21:19 [MeganD] CirceWin Gate 6.0.4
23:21:13 [bdeal] now thatthe program let me in....whats the topic todayWin Gate 6.0.4
23:21:02 Eurydice enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:20:58 [AnthonyB] Yes - Circe. I guess I started something?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:20:54 [Stephiroth] * Stephiroth waves to everyone who came inWin Gate 6.0.4
23:20:41 cberlett enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:20:27 bdeal enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:20:13 [AnthonyB] Molly? Can you expand on that?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:20:13 [Stephiroth] so... are we talking about circe? :-)Win Gate 6.0.4
23:19:52 [Stephiroth] *grin* thanks!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:19:34 [mollyhalv] btw, neat name, StephirothWin Gate 6.0.4
23:19:25 [Chimaera] hello allWin Gate 6.0.4
23:19:22 [Stephiroth] Greetings! *waves*Win Gate 6.0.4
23:19:10 [AnthonyB] And Chimaera! ; Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:18:59 [mollyhalv] so she asked for odysseus as a gift, and in return gave them supplies and information?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:18:52 [AnthonyB] Greetings, Stephiroth! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:18:47 [Stephiroth] heyWin Gate 6.0.4
23:18:47 MeganD enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:18:44 Chimaera enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:18:40 [izzy] helloWin Gate 6.0.4
23:18:27 Stephiroth enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:18:22 [AnthonyB] Greetings, izzy! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:18:00 izzy enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:17:58 [AnthonyB] Well, it's the host's duty to give gifts to the guest. The guest will give gifts when s/he is the host.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:17:57 [ilana] what do you suppose circe would have done with the pig-men had odysseus not saved them? ate them?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:17:31 MeganD exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:17:26 AlyMee101 enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:17:24 [AnthonyB] Greetings, bdeal! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:17:21 MeganD exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:17:19 [Dncrcait] i thought the rule went the other wayWin Gate 6.0.4
23:16:59 [MeganD] Under the rules of xenia, would Odysseus' men have to give Circe gifts?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:16:57 [MaryEllen] turning men into pigs is not xeniaWin Gate 6.0.4
23:16:56 bdeal exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:16:33 bdeal enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:16:07 AlyMee101 exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:16:04 [AnthonyB] Greetings, Aly and Michael! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:15:50 [AnthonyB] Good point, Ilana: what about the context of xenia?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:15:24 michael enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:15:24 [MaryEllen] circe seems like a provider of sexual pleasure, but she can also be a threatening temptressWin Gate 6.0.4
23:15:16 [ilana] so they probably expected food and drinkWin Gate 6.0.4
23:14:54 [ilana] but was circe really tempting the men? isn't it the right of a guest to be fed?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:14:19 AlyMee101 enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:14:17 [AnthonyB] Hi there, Brittany! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:13:39 brittany enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:13:26 [MaryEllen] Yes, I am thinking more of the underlying symbolismWin Gate 6.0.4
23:13:16 [Dncrcait] i agree- she seemed more like a temptressWin Gate 6.0.4
23:13:09 [phoenix] thanksWin Gate 6.0.4
23:13:05 [ilana] well hermes told odysseus to not refuse circeWin Gate 6.0.4
23:12:56 [AnthonyB] Greetings, Phoenix! Welcome!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:12:54 [MaryEllen] that does seem like a fitWin Gate 6.0.4
23:12:44 [mollyhalv] Odysseus may have pined for penelope, but that didn't stop him from sleeping with both Circe and KalypsoWin Gate 6.0.4
23:12:17 [AnthonyB] Hmmm... I think Derek Walcot, who represented Circe's island as a bordello in his version of the Odyssey, was thinking more of the general mood and the role of Circe - a sensuous temptress, for example, whose appeal and allure was primarily in the area of the sensuous and even the illicitWin Gate 6.0.4
23:12:16 [aisa] so r u saying that the reason why circe turned odysseus' men into pigs is because they probably thought that circe was a prostitute?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:12:15 [MaryEllen] maybe she sees their demands as pig-like, but when Odysseus overpowers her, she desires him. Maybe she does not want a man that she can dominateWin Gate 6.0.4
23:12:10 [MeganD] wow, never thought about thatWin Gate 6.0.4
23:12:03 phoenix enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:11:23 [ilana] men who go to prostitutes are sometimes considered pigs. circe transformed odysseus's men literally into pigsWin Gate 6.0.4
23:11:04 [MeganD] Men go willingly to prostitutes, they probably wouldn't pine for their wivesWin Gate 6.0.4
23:10:50 [mollyhalv] does that prove that Achilles really existed, or that Alex liked to tell tall tales?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:10:41 [JoelMR] it all gets back to your point about the importance of geneology in the greek world in generalWin Gate 6.0.4
23:10:13 [MaryEllen] I would imagine that men who use prostitutes may want to avoid demands, to have no judgement placed on them, and to avoid intimacy, but it may be much more complicated than thatWin Gate 6.0.4
23:10:08 [Dncrcait] i almost saw Circe more like a siren than a madameWin Gate 6.0.4
23:09:32 [AnthonyB] Yes, and Alexander the Great, for example, traced his ancestry back to Achilles on one side and Heracles on the other.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:09:24 [MeganD] YesWin Gate 6.0.4
23:08:57 [AnthonyB] I see you were talking about my Circe remark earlier...Win Gate 6.0.4
23:08:36 [JoelMR] yes, one of the spartan king lines was traced back to herakles, no?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:08:03 [ilana] thanks, that clears it upWin Gate 6.0.4
23:07:48 [AnthonyB] [Most major Greeks of the heroic period, and later, could trace their family ancestry back to a god.]Win Gate 6.0.4
23:07:28 [aisa] ahhWin Gate 6.0.4
23:07:28 [ilana] oh okWin Gate 6.0.4
23:07:08 [MaryEllen] whoops, I mean complicatedWin Gate 6.0.4
23:07:08 [AnthonyB] Ilana, 'dios' and 'diogenes' were terms used rather generally of heroes referring to them as special. Literally it does mean 'born from Zeus', but not necessarily directly as a son or daughter.Win Gate 6.0.4
23:06:52 [mollyhalv] isn't Laertes related to Zeus?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:06:48 [aisa] hey that's a good questionWin Gate 6.0.4
23:06:45 [MaryEllen] I think Circe is more complected than thatWin Gate 6.0.4
23:05:59 [ilana] i had a question. why does circe keep on calling odysseus "seed of Zeus?" does that mean he's Zeus's son?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:05:50 [MeganD] Mary, keep on talking about Circe, what do you think?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:05:23 [ilana] hiWin Gate 6.0.4
23:05:21 [MeganD] Hey, everyoneWin Gate 6.0.4
23:05:15 mollyhalv enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:05:12 [Raphael] Hello, ProfessorWin Gate 6.0.4
23:05:09 [MaryEllen] maybe you cannot use the word prostituteWin Gate 6.0.4
23:04:59 [aisa] good evening :-DWin Gate 6.0.4
23:04:58 [nena] hello !!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:04:51 ilana enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:04:49 [MaryEllen] for some reason my send was blockedWin Gate 6.0.4
23:04:44 [AnthonyB] Good evening, everyone!Win Gate 6.0.4
23:04:28 MaryEllen enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:04:26 AnthonyB enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:04:17 [aisa] uh.. what's the topic?Win Gate 6.0.4
23:04:17 MaryEllen exits from this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:04:00 nena enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:02:45 [MeganD] Well, some men use prostitutes to get away from their real lives, as opposed to Odysseus who wants to get back to hisWin Gate 6.0.4
23:02:18 Admin enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:01:51 [MaryEllen] and if that seemed like a fitWin Gate 6.0.4
23:01:34 aisa enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:01:34 [MaryEllen] I tried to think about it in terms of why men use prostitutesWin Gate 6.0.4
23:01:10 [MeganD] I had never really thought of her as a Madame beforeWin Gate 6.0.4
23:00:18 elance enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:00:17 Dncrcait enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
23:00:08 [MaryEllen] Any ideas on Professor Bulloch's question on Circe?Win Gate 6.0.4
22:58:45 hliu04 enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
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22:56:33 [JoelMR] hiWin Gate 6.0.4
22:55:59 [Raphael] helloWin Gate 6.0.4
22:55:50 [MeganD] Hey everyoneWin Gate 6.0.4
22:55:21 MeganD enters this roomWin Gate 6.0.4
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