Return to Main Page

19:03:35 [rhpark] hi

19:03:51 [rhpark] hello

19:04:30 [Anthony] Hi there, guys!

19:04:43 [jameson] Hello Prof

19:04:48 [rhpark] Hi Prof

19:05:33 [Anthony] How are things going?

19:05:36 [jameson] I checked out the conversation with Michael Woods... very interesting

19:06:18 [jameson] Is he coming to Berkeley anytime? .. as he was invited!

19:07:03 [Anthony] Yes, it was worth doing. He fitted us into a very busy schedule in London - working on the last episode of a 10-program Shakespeare documentary.

19:07:24 [Anthony] I'm going to try to fix up a visit....

19:08:03 [jameson] His documentary is really a great compliment to your lectures

19:08:17 [Anthony] Tell me what you both think about our documentary. My own take is that MW is really very good - most journalistic things of that kind are usually much lower quality

19:09:08 [Anthony] I'm glad you reckon the documentary and what we do in class go together. That's my intention, of course, but you never know.... :-)

19:09:51 [jameson] It is first rate.. you can tell the amount of research that went into it. I do find that some of his questions though are a little redundant, but his interviews and his reasoning are really fabulous.

19:10:20 [Anthony] RaeHyung, how do you find the documentary?

19:10:54 [Anthony] Yes, he's very intelligent. And he's stayed true to his passions

19:11:43 [rhpark] What documentary? you mean MW's?

19:12:01 [jameson] I really like how he visits various sites "in search of"

19:12:10 [Anthony] And it seems to me he conveys very well what a scientific historic inquiry looks like, along with the history of the subject. And you get to meet some of the leading authorities in the field, too.

19:12:34 [Anthony] Yes, Michael Wood's, the one we're watching at the beginning of each class.

19:13:03 [jameson] Have you studied with some of those scholars? Especially the ones at Cambridge?

19:13:17 [Anthony] (I have a slight prejudice: several of the people he interviews were my own teachers, and people I taught with too.)

19:13:41 [rhpark] Sorry I could not find his documentary.

19:13:47 [Anthony] Hi there! Diana! 15837414! Welcome!

19:14:15 [jameson] I imagined that they were... I invisioned you sitting in the same library reading the same books. Awesome!

19:15:06 [Anthony] Yes, I studied with John Chadwick (Linear B) and Geoffrey Kirk (who was in the last section we saw). Then I taught for quite a while with both of them - with John Chadwick quite closely.

19:16:20 [jameson] Well we are all grateful that you teach here at Berkeley now..

19:16:21 [diana] hello

19:16:32 [Anthony] Diana, 158....: we were talking about how you find the documentary at the beginning of each class...

19:16:41 [diana] already there are many conversations..

19:16:53 [rhpark] But I've seen that documenatary in the class with great interest

19:16:54 [Anthony] Thanks, John!

19:17:03 [diana] Thanks..

19:17:48 [15837414] they're pretty interesting..

19:18:11 [rhpark] Oh maybe I've misunderstood meaning of 'find' sorry ;-)

19:18:42 [jameson] The documentary seems to support the literature, it will be interesting what the outcome of all the evidence yields.

19:19:27 [Anthony] What I hope is that, among other things, the documentary will help stimulate thoughts about the question 'What is myth? What does myth have to do with history? What is truth?' and so on

19:20:36 [Anthony] RaeHyung, you're doing fine! I would not be able to take a class taught in your native language!!

19:20:40 [rhpark] The document supports visual aspect.

19:20:49 [jameson] Yes, myth and society seem to operate in a symbiotic relationship, which I am now trying to unravel and grasp.

19:20:57 [Anthony] Hi there, jennybelo! Welcome!

19:20:59 [rhpark] Thanks

19:21:05 [jennybelo] helolo

19:21:19 [jennybelo] this is my first time

19:21:29 [rhpark] I'm just here for two reasons.

19:21:45 [Anthony] First time to this chatroom, or to any chatroom?

19:21:49 [jennybelo] so what is the topic of the discussion?

19:21:52 [rhpark] to study Myth and to study English;-)

19:22:02 [rhpark] about document

19:22:15 [jennybelo] great

19:22:20 [jameson] The Odyssey has spurred an interest into reading all of the great quests now.. Theseus, Herakles, Jason..

19:22:23 [diana] cheer up, rhpark...

19:22:33 [Anthony] Then I'm delighted, RaeHyung, if we can have a small part in helping you do both of those things....

19:22:45 [rhpark] thanks

19:22:52 [15837414] i have some questions

19:22:58 [jameson] The stories are so intertwined, I find I have to start at the beginning.

19:23:17 [Anthony] Hi there, Kying! Welcome!

19:23:45 [15837414] i find the story of the Golden FLeece fascinating

19:23:54 [Anthony] Yes, the stories are very intertwined - and for reasons.... What are your questions, 158?

19:24:09 [15837414] can you explain the origin of that story again

19:24:53 [Anthony] Jenny, I thought you looked a bit puzzled, or disatisfied, in class yesterday. (I don't mean you to take that personally, of course.) Anything we should talk about here?

19:25:31 [Anthony] The origin of the Golden Fleece story.... hmm.... Well...

19:25:44 [jennybelo] well, I think I'm getting to understand most of the stories

19:26:11 [Anthony] .... it does depend a bit what you mean by 'origin'. Which is connected to what you think myth is doing generally, of course.

19:26:48 [15837414] well it was mentioned in Medea

19:27:14 [jennybelo] I don't have any particular questions but it would be nice to reread many of them because certain details have escaped from my memory

19:27:14 [Anthony] For example, if we're looking for very pragmatic connections, very recently a Mycenaean palace was excavated at Iolcos (the place Jason set out from, and the seat of power that he was contesting.)

19:27:55 [Anthony] and guess what? there was clear evidence of trade with the eastern Black Sea area, and quite possibly of trade in gold....

19:28:23 [Anthony] I *think* I've got a link on the website to the news report about that.

19:28:59 [Anthony] Now, people have speculated for ages that the 'Golden Fleece' maybe has something to do with gold trading....

19:28:59 [15837414] what does the golden fleece symbolize

19:29:26 [jennybelo] I did not find Euripides Medea to be very vicious; she seemed human

19:29:59 [jameson] When I think of Jason.. I think of Ino's "bribery of the messenger to the oracle"

19:30:05 [Anthony] Exactly, 158. I would say that finding a trade connection between Iolcos and Colchis is fine, but that doesn't really explain all that much - it just provides a sort of starting context.

19:30:20 [jennybelo] and I do not see anything herois about Jason

19:30:44 [jameson] Lineage is a very important theme.. one that I have highlighted heavily in my study.

19:31:09 [Anthony] Yes, Jenny. I think most people would agree with you - no matter which end of the spectrum of debate about whose 'fault' it all is they come down on

19:31:58 [Anthony] As you know, I think lineage can be very revealing about all sorts of dimensions of meaning in the mythology

19:32:38 [Anthony] A question for you, Jenny: what would a 'heroic' type of Jason look like? In Greek terms, I mean, of course.

19:33:08 [jameson] I agree with you too Jenny.. Jason really "missed the boat", perhaps it illustrates how Odysseus' behaviour is exemplified.

19:33:33 [Anthony] For example, if Odysseus is heroic, then why can't Jason be? (They have so much in common, surely?)

19:33:46 [Anthony] Hi there, Chris! Welcome!

19:34:18 [jennybelo] well, at least he would take charge of all the actions rather than letting Medea take care of him.

19:34:36 [Anthony] John: expand a bit on what you mean by 'missed the boat'.

19:35:12 [Anthony] But, Jenny, doesn't Odysseus get plenty of help from just about every female he encounters? In fact depends on them.

19:35:40 [Chris] hello

19:36:08 [jameson] Well, I mean that Jason had an opportunity to uphold some Greek virtues, but he let his pride interfere, and as such was knocked in the head by his own boat's mast.

19:36:12 [diana] I think...to hero, it seem important to use their helpers, especially women...

19:36:49 [jameson] I am getting in Greek myth it is "how you finish" that really counts.

19:37:08 [jennybelo] yes, but he thanks them and admits how they have helped him, yet Jason tends to give excuses as to the reasons why Medea helped him; he does not thank her

19:37:28 [Anthony] Yes - and to follow up on Diana's point, do you think that in Greek terms it was 'unheroic', or inappropriate in some way, to have female helpers?

19:37:42 [Anthony] Hi there, Monia! Welcome!

19:38:06 [monia] no, it seems pretty normal

19:38:31 [Anthony] Or does one accept / receive help from females only in certain circumstances, or of a particular kind....?

19:38:31 [monia] it doesn't seem to be "inappropiate at all

19:38:46 [monia] hi, thanks for the welcome!

19:39:14 [jennybelo] as long as the helper is a god with unoque abilities it does not matter who he or she is

19:39:19 [Anthony] Hi, Otto! Welcome!

19:39:21 [Otto] Hello, Anthony!

19:39:32 [diana] i guess although he does not thank her, he can be hero to Greeks because Medea is not Greek.

19:40:25 [diana] in the Greek point of view....--;;;;

19:40:36 [monia] that's a good point, because Medea's a foreigner she does not seem to count to the greeks

19:40:53 [Anthony] OK, let's consider the question this way: Odysseus receives help from Circe. How is that any different from Jason receiving help from her niece, Medea?

19:42:22 [Anthony] (There are some other patterns there too: Odysseus receives some magic [maybe an ointment] from Hermes to help him against Circe: Jason receives magic *from* Medea to help him against her father...

19:42:44 [jennybelo] Circe did not demand anything in return from Odysseus, while Medea virtually became dependent of his actions and gave up on her family

19:42:46 [jameson] Medea perhaps has a vested interest in her children as opposed to Circe

19:43:23 [Anthony] To broaden the consideration of patterns out a bit, Theseus receives crucial help from Ariadne when he battles the Minotaur...

19:44:25 [jameson] Yes, to overcome obsticles, women are vital, do disregard your helper could equate towards retribution.

19:44:29 [Anthony] Right, Jenny. Circe is not a daughter, but a complete equal. Medea is part of a different configuration: a daughter whose hand is to be won from her father

19:44:48 [Anthony] Ditto Ariadne, of course.

19:45:40 [Anthony] So if we're analysing emotional ties and the nature of reciprocal obligations, Medea and Circe are quite different?

19:45:56 [monia] But Theseus left her on an island once he was done using her, just like Jason abandoned Medea. If Odysseus had taken Circe with him when he left the island, he might have abandoned her also

19:46:23 [jameson] Hmmm, I am thinking of the power of love in all of this as well, it is such a strong force, illuminated by Aphordite coming from an primal generation.

19:47:05 [Anthony] A daughter who encounters her 'prince' inevitably has a conflict of loyalties? If she chooses to go with her prince (the young man of her own generation) she has to 'betray' her father's generation??

19:48:40 [jameson] Question: in the taking of a bride in Greek society, do males give a gift to the family in return of the female?

19:48:50 [diana] because loyalties tent to think that free marriage is not useless....

19:49:14 [jennybelo] I suppose that in such case the daughter must weigh in her decision because there will be no chance for her to go back to her family again

19:49:48 [Anthony] Would anyone like to try writing a version of Jason-Medea [offline!] in which Jason is truly 'heroic' in behavior and attitude? And what would that do to the way Medea would have to be shaped out?

19:50:18 [Anthony] Would it still be possible to have a Medea who kills her own children, with her own hands?

19:51:41 [jameson] Hmmm, the concept of moira (fate) comes to mind here..

19:51:57 [jennybelo] I suppose she would not have as much vengence and hatred for him as to get back at him by killing his children

19:52:48 [Otto] Medea would not have become a "tragic hero," if Jason had not betrayed her

19:52:59 [monia] If he still left Medea I don't think the story would have ended differently. In the play she doesn't care how heroic he is, she only cares about his abandoning her

19:53:11 [Otto] I'm sure everything would turn out differently if Jason were a "hero"

19:53:36 [monia] Would he still have left her?

19:54:03 [Anthony] OK - let's look for examples of 'Heroic princes who win their princesses': how about Theseus? Not the Theseus who wins Ariadne, but the one who marries Phaedra....

19:54:15 [Otto] He was a hero to the Greeks, yet he still left her.

19:54:30 [jameson] I find that perhaps in Jason, mans weakness is revealed, perhaps a different Jason would yield different and more cohesive results.

19:55:16 [Anthony] I remind you that Phaedra kills Theseus' son..... ????

19:56:06 [Anthony] How different is that? (Phaedra was a step-mother, and we know how tricky they can be....)

19:56:22 [jameson] Ok... now I remember.. she was jealous of Hippolytus and made up the story that he attacked her

19:56:38 [Anthony] That's right.

19:57:23 [Anthony] Otto, what would it do to the Medea of this myth if Jason is made more of a 'hero'?

19:57:23 [jameson] Theseus was so mad that he asked Poseidon to punish Hippolytus

19:58:33 [jennybelo] why is it common to ask someone else to punish on your behalf?

19:58:50 [Anthony] ... and then here's another variation to consider: Heracles kills his own children!

19:58:58 [jameson] If I remember though, Phaedra hanged herself to escape Theseus' rage in her great lie

19:59:07 [Otto] I don't think anything would change. I'm sure he'd get even more tempted by that taste of "fame" and "glory."

19:59:30 [jameson] which contrasts to Medea flying away

19:59:58 [Anthony] Good!

20:00:10 [Otto] Medea wanted revenge, not an escape.

20:01:08 [jameson] Pride and revenge... got those themes on my list!

20:01:26 [Otto] hubris before the fall...

20:01:55 [jameson] <laugh>

20:01:55 [Otto] tragic flaws...

20:03:33 [Anthony] What if we see Medea leaving at the end of the play in the sun's chariot as a sort of elevation? Almost an affirmation of her (semi-)divine nature? Does that make any difference to the 'morality' of the myth? or of this version of it?

20:03:43 [jameson] Perhaps Jason should have followed Orpheus' lead in how he followed Eurydice no matter what.. "commitment"

20:04:28 [Anthony] Ah, but then Medea would have had to have been taken from him in some way, surely?

20:04:40 [Anthony] Or?

20:05:01 [Otto] Well, then that would allow for people to interpret her actions as "correct"...

20:05:06 [Otto] or at least, less immoral

20:05:31 [rhpark] woops library is closing

20:05:37 [jameson] Hmmm, I the elevation factor is quite a twist... It upholds Medea's actions instead of a thunderbolt by Zeus

20:05:53 [rhpark] maybe I've to leave now

20:05:58 [rhpark] sorry

20:06:14 [Anthony] I don't want to halt this discussion, but I do also want to ask if there is anything else that is particularly on anyone's mind

20:06:37 [monia] I had a quick question about Ino

20:06:53 [Anthony] Thanks for coming RaeHyung!

20:07:07 [Anthony] Go ahead, Monia.

20:07:36 [monia] She's supposed to be a savior of children, but she took her son an jumped off a cliff with him

20:07:43 [monia] how does that count as saving?

20:08:03 [Anthony] Yes - escaping from the crazed Athamas

20:08:49 [monia] but it didn't really help her son, who died anyway

20:09:18 [jennybelo] I will have to go now too but this has been a very interesting discussion;I hope to come here again.

20:09:20 [Anthony] This is actually quite a good illustration of a broader quality of Greek Myth, that it isn't necessarily 'intent' that characterises an action, but its effect

20:10:01 [Anthony] So her baby was actually taken up by a dolphin and then transported to Corinth - where he was indeed immortalised!

20:10:38 [Anthony] So Ino's action did indeed 'save' her son, by making him immortal ('apotheosis').

20:11:20 [Anthony] (Remember, Palaemon gets to be the 'hero' in whose memory the great games at the Isthmus are held ever after

20:11:47 [monia] so, in a way, she really did even more then save his life

20:12:07 [Anthony] Ino may not have been able to 'know' that that would happen (and therefore 'intend' it), but that was the effect.

20:12:09 [monia] she preserved his memory forever

20:12:21 [Anthony] Yes.

20:12:28 [diana] the one to rush the death for avoiding the death gain the immortality at last....

20:13:16 [Anthony] And I would add that in terms of motif, or theme, jumping off a cliff is actually a fairly common form of 'death by transformation' in the language of Greek Myth.

20:13:45 [diana] many heros become the immortals with their actions not to fear the death....

20:14:07 [Anthony] Yes, Diana.

20:14:08 [jameson] Interesting that deeds or actions can equate to immortality, for instance the nemian lion killed by Herakles

20:14:41 [jameson] It seems to be the deed most remembered by him

20:15:20 [Anthony] We haven't yet met them, but the daughters of King Cecrops (Aglauros, Pandrosos and Herse) jumped to their deaths off the acropolis in Athens - they were thereby metamorphosed into significant 'immortal' figures

20:16:40 [Anthony] Monia, does this help at all with what you had in mind?

20:17:06 [monia] yes, it makes much more sense now

20:17:48 [jameson] Hmmm, interesting the relationship between sacrifice, intent and action... for instance, Iphigenia was ultimately was replaced with a deer and saved by Artemis

20:17:49 [diana] what does it mean, the metamorphosis from mortal to immotal?

20:18:02 [Anthony] As John said earlier, everything is so intertwined, isn't it?

20:18:04 [rhpark] hi i'm just back to my dorm

20:18:20 [Anthony] That was quick, RaeHyung!

20:18:20 [diana] just to remember the heros forever?

20:18:52 [Anthony] Diana, 'metamorphosis' means literally, in Greek, 'changing one's shape or form'

20:19:37 [rhpark] I've runned;-)

20:20:22 [Anthony] it can be quite literal, like Daphne changing into a tree, or more 'metaphorical', as when death is only part of a larger process, and 'stands for' a change of a major kind

20:21:26 [diana] hmmmmm...in Greek myth, there are so many metamorphosis....why is it needed in the Greek myth...

20:21:33 [monia] So the daughters that jumped of the acropolis in Athens, what larger process were they part of?

20:21:56 [jameson] It seems as though Achilles metamorphasized in a way when he finally capitulated to Priam and gave Hektors body back to be properly buried

20:21:56 [monia] Were they also immortalized like Ino's son, or did something else happen to them?

20:23:22 [Otto] it's not very often a mortal is turned immortal...

20:24:08 [rhpark] in that case mortal experience tragic things

20:24:23 [diana] it would be interesting, the differences between the changed one and the one to go to Hades....

20:24:33 [Otto] which other characters have gone from mortal to immortal?

20:24:52 [Anthony] The daughters of Cecrops 'died' in the myth - but in the (larger) world of Athenian religion (ritual and cult practice) they became significant figures of worship. In historic times they had shrines at the acropolis, and priestesses who were appointed who were important religious functionaries.

20:25:00 [jameson] I find this most interesting too Diana... the transformation of before and after in hades

20:27:14 [Anthony] In many ways this is what a 'hero' (/'heroine') is in the Greek way of thinking: a figure that was mortal, and therefore truly died, but who had a significant and everlasting impact on our world, and who continues to be venerated for that

20:27:16 [monia] And this transformation is shown in the myth by their action of jumping off of a tall building.

20:28:08 [jameson] Thank you for the discussion, really interesting... <hate to go>

20:28:38 [Otto] question: was heracles the only successful case of "mortal-turned-immortal"...in the literal sense?

20:28:52 [Anthony] 'Hero' is as much a status as anything. Of course, 'heroes' in this sense are often 'heroic' in our sense also, but that is not necessarily their primary function, and often not their primary attribute or achievement

20:29:45 [monia] No, Ino was turned into a nymph, and they are immortal

20:29:54 [Anthony] So 'heroes' are often founders of some kind, initiators, pioneers, builders of institutions, the 'first'....

20:32:00 [Anthony] .... conversely, institutions, significant customs, communities, major technological inventions etc. etc. all have their originator, their 'hero' or 'heroine' who was the prime mover

20:32:29 [diana] So Jason could be the hero, if he were the pioneer to trade with the Black Sea....

20:32:52 [Anthony] ...and (guess what!) this is all recounted in Myth! These are your heroes and heroines of myth...

20:34:27 [Anthony] Yes, Diana. In fact it would be an interesting 'exercise' to ask 'What is it that Jason is the initiator, the founder, the focal figure, etc. of?

20:34:29 [rhpark] question:all of heroes end in a tragedy?

20:34:50 [Anthony] Hi there, ShinjiJon! Welcome!

20:35:25 [ShinjiJon] Hey :-) My nmae is actually Jonathan :-) Hi

20:35:35 [ShinjiJon] 'm the one in the class with the laptop :-)

20:35:43 [ShinjiJon] name* obviously I can't spell

20:36:57 [Anthony] RaeHyung, I'd put it this way: Greeks see 'heroes' (in the sense that we've been talking) as very mixed figures - just because one os super-strong, for example, and a great achiever, and tamer of the wild, doesn't mean he isn't also capable of being very destructive.

20:37:23 [Anthony] Hi, Jonathan!

20:39:01 [Anthony] Hence also, in the family trees we've just been doing, you notice that those early figures are both Founders and Great Sinners

20:39:07 [monia] This is a helpful chat, but I have to go...

20:40:08 [Anthony] I'd say it's not so much a case of the 'fatal flaw' as that the Greeks viewed human nature as a very mixed thing

20:40:32 [diana] Really interesting... see you at Monday....Thanks...

20:40:42 [Otto] moral ambiguity

20:42:44 [Anthony] You know, folks, I should be leaving. Please feel free to stay and discuss as long as you like - the chatroom is open 24/7.

20:42:47 [ShinjiJon] -_-v

20:42:56 [ShinjiJon] hey Mae

20:43:07 [ShinjiJon] okay thanks :-)

20:43:26 [Anthony] And I'll post an archive of this discussion as soon as I can. (Also of the previous two weeks' discussions.)

20:44:09 [rhpark] thanks prof

20:44:29 [rhpark] it will be helpful for me

20:44:33 [Anthony] Have a good weekend! See you Monday.

20:45:31 [rhpark] see you Monday

Return to Main Page