19:18:22 [Anthony] Hi, Chris! King Ying! Monica!

19:18:39 [monicavi] hi!

19:18:45 [Chris] hello!

19:19:01 [kyingkying] hello!

19:19:18 [Anthony] How's Friday going?

19:19:22 [monicavi] i guess i will start off by asking if anyone has noticed the frequent use of the number 12?

19:19:43 [monicavi] I'm not sure what to make of this or if it even means anything.

19:19:46 [Anthony] Does anyone have anything they're dying to talk about?

19:20:09 [Anthony] 12 Titans, 12 Olympians, 12 Labors of Heracles....

19:20:12 [kyingkying] Anthony, can you repeat the significance of Pelops again? I didn't have enough time to write down the notes during class.

19:20:35 [Anthony] Well, there are 12 months in the cycle of the year....

19:21:04 [Anthony] Pelops: well, there are several things wrapped into this one.

19:21:53 [Anthony] The topic arose because someone asked how the Greeks themselves got to know their own mythology. Did everyone, or most people, really know all this stuff?

19:22:29 [Anthony] I brought in Olympia as an example because I think it illustrates very nicely a lot of what's involved here.

19:23:02 [Anthony] Familiar place, familiar realm of activity - very real, too.

19:23:25 [kyingkying] I don't quite get the Olympia part neither...

19:23:53 [kyingkying] Sorry, I really have no idea about greek before I take this class

19:24:17 [Anthony] And my primary point was, look how myth is intricately tied up in this. It's not just The Olympic Games, it's a world of human activity that has myth in every part of it.

19:25:15 [Anthony] Nothing complicated here, King Ying. I'm just saying: take the Olympic Games - go to the site of the ancient Olympic Games....

19:25:35 [Anthony] [Many in the class are in the same position.]

19:26:21 [kyingkying] How about the 3 dimension of the temple, is it important?

19:26:21 [Anthony] ....and as we wander round the place where the Games occur every 4 years, we find myth everywhere.

19:27:21 [Anthony] Thus: this is where Zeus fought Cronos (his father) when he took over from him; this is where the prototypical chariot race was run (the first 'games')....

19:28:10 [Anthony] Yes, the temple is very important (as also the many other religious buildings that Olympia is packed with)

19:28:35 [kyingkying] Okay, so that's the origin Olympic game?

19:28:54 [kyingkying] So what are the three levels represent again?

19:29:11 [Anthony] ... it sits at the heart of the sanctuary, close to the entrance to the stadium, and it is bedecked with images (sculptures) that are clearly very significant symbols.

19:29:50 [Anthony] And the main example I gave was the 'first race', the one between Pelops and Oenomaus

19:30:02 [kyingkying] I see.

19:30:42 [Anthony] - it's a central myth for Olympia, and it's also the theme of the east pediment on the temple (the area over the main entrance)

19:32:12 [monicavi] In reponse to King Ying not knowing anything about Greece, my suggestion is to watch My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I watched it before the class started, coincidentally, and it really helped me to understand a little bit. I know it sounds outrageous, but it really did.

19:32:35 [Anthony] When I referred to 'three levels' this was with reference to a slightly different point, the three 'dimensions of time' (my label) in which significant places are often seen to have their origins (and therefore significances)

19:32:52 [Anthony] Good recommendation, Monica!

19:33:07 [kyingkying] thank you! =) Monicavi!

19:33:41 [kyingkying] So what are the 3 dimemsions for?

19:34:03 [Anthony] So at Olympia, this was the place where Zeus and Cronos fought it out (Dimension One: early, divine, part of the early stages);

19:35:03 [Anthony] then it is the place where in the 'heroic age' (that great period some centuries ago when our ancestors were busy building all our cities, and institutions, and so on....)

19:35:57 [Anthony] ... inthe 'heroic age' significant events happened which sort of laid down a pattern of behavior amongst us humans (Dimenstion Two)

19:37:35 [Anthony] then there is our own age, the time of ourselves, our parents, our grandparents, great-grandparents etc. (Dimension Three), and out historical records tell us things like when the Olympic Games were founded, and things like that

19:39:17 [kyingkying] I see.

19:39:59 [kyingkying] Thank you for the detail explaination, Anthony!

19:40:22 [kyingkying] What is Santorini and Thera?

19:40:29 [Anthony] So most places, institutions, practices, etc. can be thought of as having been 'patterned out', 'founded' if you like - and it isn't contradictory to say "Well the Olympic Games have their origin in three ways, and it depends which you're thinking of...'

19:41:26 [Anthony] You should check out Santorini = Thera (ancient name) in the Atlas.

19:41:52 [monicavi] i have a question about some of the figures' tombs we have been learning about. Is it very likely that the tombs that are in Greece now are not really theirs?

19:43:43 [Anthony] The identity of the tombs: well, we have no way of knowing really, do we? However we do have plenty of ancient sources that report things like "just off at the side of the market place, close to the temple of Athena, is the tomb of X' and so on

19:44:59 [monicavi] hmmm, i see.

19:45:13 [Anthony] Most tombs were plundered a long time ago, so most physical evidence which might have enabled us to make identifications has long gone

19:45:49 [Anthony] But oral traditions, and local traditions, can be very powerful, and very enduring also.

19:49:14 [monicavi] k, thanks for your time everyone. happy weekend to you.

19:51:38 [kyingkying] Anthony, so what is the significance of the nuber 12?

19:52:14 [kyingkying] I didn't notice where it appears...

19:55:26 [Anthony] You'll find 12 primary gods in the generation of the Titans (the second generation after the creation of the universe), 12 Olympian gods (the next generation that replaces them) and so on

19:56:33 [Anthony] I think it's probably linked to the 12 months of the annual cycle of the calendar. There are also quite a few groupings of 12 in Near Eastern mythology - and I bet elsewhere in the world, too

19:57:17 [Anthony] It's probably a 'natural' magin number to have

19:57:33 [Anthony] ['magic number']

19:59:01 [Anthony] Chris - are there things you wanted to talk about?

19:59:05 [Chris] Do you know roughly when the 12 month calender was first constructed?

20:00:18 [Anthony] Hmm - I don't know when the earliest testimony is for a 12-month annual cycle. It is very basic, though.

20:02:22 [Chris] In class you mentioned how Ino represented the rebirth of Odysseus, in what sense is he reborn?

20:02:42 [kyingkying] Thank you for your patience answering all my questions in detail! I got to go... the coputer lab is closing at 5:00. Have a nice weekk end~!

20:06:26 [Anthony] I'd say rather that Ino 'heralds' the Rebirth of Od.

20:07:22 [Anthony] Coming back home for someone like Odysseus - a warrior returning after 10 years of war and another 10 years of travel - wasn't/isn't just a simple matter of traversing distances....

20:08:05 [Anthony] we sometimess call it 're-entry'. Rebirth is another way of expressing the same thing

20:08:57 [Anthony] My point about Ino is that once you see how she is very closely associated with babies, and rescuing and nurturing them....

20:10:37 [Anthony] then it's difficult not to think of her in that capacity when she comes into Odysseus' life

20:11:18 [Chris] oh ok, that helps clear things for me

20:11:54 [Chris] I have to be going now, thank you very much for your time and help

20:12:26 [Anthony] You're very welcomje, Chris. Have a good weekend, and I'll see you on Monday.

20:12:43 [Chris] alright, bye!

20:12:53 [Anthony] Ciao!