19:07:16 [Anthony] Hi there, Alison! Welcome!

19:11:52 [Anthony] Hi, Ryan! Welcome!

19:13:45 [Anthony] So how has the week gone for both of you?

19:15:56 [rmuehe] not so bad, anthony. say, how do you find the odyssey, any startling insights? so far I have not become enamored with anything other than the study of mythology, that is to say, not the primary text.

19:19:15 [rmuehe] right, so myth cannot be defined structurally, so what then defines it? We have authors like Homer and Sophocles who fashion a particular perspective of a larger precursor text that the Greeks share. Does the author enter into the text, or is he transformed by it, mythologizing himself?

19:20:28 [Anthony] I think one of the intriguing things about Greek Myth is that it is 'interactive': it's a two-way process, in a way.

19:21:24 [apesche] I'm sorry my computer has been freezing on me

19:21:28 [Anthony] The Odyssey? A pretty remarkable text.... always more to find in it, and always a paradigm

19:23:20 [apesche] I have noticed how in the Odyssey it is easy to make arguments that are contradicting

19:24:11 [Anthony] Do you have an example, Alison?

19:24:28 [apesche] for ex, earlier on when Calypso talks about double standards

19:24:36 [rmuehe] sure, instead of an expressive account that describes the way things are, I agree that myth is a street that is cobbled together, that emerges with a subject and is not purely given. Origination is not so essential; it is the process that is prominent - although logos is to be had, as well.

19:25:04 [Anthony] [Chatrooms do cause problems, as they are very memory intensive. I find Netscape is the best of the browsers to use for chatrooms.]

19:25:04 [rmuehe] sorry, I did not mean to send the last msg.

19:25:11 [apesche] when we think about Penelope's situation back in Ithaca

19:25:33 [Anthony] Go on...

19:26:19 [Anthony] [All messages welcome here, Ryan!]

19:26:25 [apesche] she seems to be trying to remain faithful to Odysseus

19:27:15 [rmuehe] the ambiguity of these situations allows different interpretations. they allow for possible worlds of invention.

19:27:21 [Anthony] So Penelope is trying to remain faithful, but Calypso doesn't have any thought for her interests, is that what you're thinking?

19:27:48 [apesche] yes it is

19:28:46 [Anthony] OK - in terms of Greek thinking, and the working of Greek Myth, do you think Calypso *should* have had regard for Penelope?

19:29:48 [apesche] I'm not really sure

19:30:45 [apesche] I am just finding it really interesting how life back in Ithaca is so different from situations elsewhere

19:30:45 [Anthony] Let's turn it the other way round: what does it signify that Calypso clearly does not have any qualms on Penelope's behalf?

19:31:46 [Anthony] Yes - it is very different, isn't it. Compare Nestor's place at Pylos, or (very different!) Menelaus and Helen in Sparta

19:32:09 [rmuehe] That Calypso mursters more freedom than the morality of mortals

19:32:25 [apesche] They are so welcoming of Telemachus

19:32:56 [Anthony] So as a god Calypso doesn't have to be bound by the moral limitations that apply to mortals?

19:33:07 [apesche] and eager to help him or at least reveal what they know about his father

19:35:08 [Anthony] So - domestic chaos (or at least turmoil) on Ithaca - regularity and an orderliness elsewhere that allows for civil behavior?

19:36:06 [apesche] hmmm...

19:36:09 [rmuehe] Calypso is bound by the power of other divinities. There is an ethical concern for her own well being, she cannot step on Zeus' toes but she is more free to make choices perhaps because the other immortals have less of a sense of "faithfulness" then humans.

19:37:08 [Anthony] What do you think, Alison?

19:38:31 [apesche] I'm really not sure exactly, I'm still trying to see the whole picture...I don't think I'm looking enough at the difference between mortality and immortality

19:40:17 [Anthony] OK - an interesting area, this one: what are the attitudes of 'Odysseus' women' towards Odysseus? We have to add in Circe and Nausicaa, yes?

19:41:31 [apesche] Nausicaa is the Phaecian princess- right?

19:41:47 [Anthony] Yes.

19:42:28 [Anthony] And Circe is the 'witch' who turns men (initially) into pigs. An enchantress figure who lives in a cottage in the middle of the woods.....

19:43:19 [apesche] To be honest, I must read further....

19:43:31 [rmuehe] Well, they do benefit Odysseus, getting him along on his quest home.

19:44:34 [Anthony] OK - fair enough. Let's take another approach. In terms of the motifs and language of Greek Myth (what you've seen of it so far) how *might* Penelope be behaving and situated?

19:45:01 [apesche] I know that Odysseus has gained their interests like he did with Calypso

19:45:20 [Anthony] Yes, certainly - Helper figures. So that, presumably, will make a difference to how we - and Odysseus - view them, won't it?

19:45:44 [apesche] yes

19:46:15 [rmuehe] but they can also be craven destroyers! at a whim

19:46:20 [Anthony] So - let's pursue this for a moment - who are the main Helper figures?

19:47:19 [rmuehe] Athena helps off and on

19:47:36 [Anthony] And should we note that Calypso and Circe, and Nausicaa too, although they are clearly quite smitten by Odysseus, they don't ultimately deny help and refuse to let him leave?

19:48:47 [apesche] that is true...it seems as though Odysseus doesn't address their feelings towards him

19:48:51 [rmuehe] truly there is an aspect of charity, but still...

19:49:06 [apesche] or he just disregards thyem because he wants to return home??

19:50:00 [Anthony] Right. So, Athena, Calypso, Circe, Nausicaa.... anyone else?

19:52:04 [apesche] I think I need to keep reading

19:52:52 [rmuehe] Not Poseidon. Zeus seems to have absolved himself of responsibility, I do not recall.

19:53:02 [Anthony] Do you recall who Ino is? (Don't worry - it's quite easy to overlook her, namewise anyway.

19:53:20 [apesche] yes, she gave him the veil right?

19:54:01 [apesche] I was wandering about her significance...

19:54:09 [Anthony] That's her!

19:54:57 [apesche] I didn't understand the importance of throwing the veil back into the water

19:55:16 [Anthony] Another Helper. So, a question to bear in mind: to what extent are figures like Calypso and Circe to be seen as Helpers as much as lovers (and therefore competitors, in a way, with Penelope)?

19:55:51 [Anthony] (I'll be talking more about Ino next week. Quite a fascinating figure, and episode.

19:57:33 [Anthony] Can I go back to the question we started to raise a moment ago? From the motifs and 'language' of Greek Myth, as you've encounteres them so far, what were the possibilities for Penelope?

19:58:05 [apesche] That's a good question. I haven't thought about them as competitors to Penelope but I think that is because Odysseus seems eager to return to her, and always leaves them

19:58:07 [rmuehe] yes, are they self-serving, or are they interested in the well-being of Odysseus?

19:58:57 [Anthony] Or, to put it in a quite practical way, if you like, how does Odysseus know what's going on on Ithaca and with Penelope? What are the realistic possibilities he must be considering? (From the point of view of Greek Myth, I mean.)

19:59:09 [apesche] Well, they seem to be self-serving but they ultimately give in and aid him

20:01:01 [rmuehe] the library closes soon and I must leave, though I would love to know what you think Anthony.

20:02:14 [apesche] I'm also sorry if I am not completely caught up on all of this we are talking about

20:02:58 [Anthony] Ah! The witching hour on Friday! Can I keep my hand concealed until next week? Monday or so? Is that unfair? Take a close look, though, at the matter of what Odysseus may be thinking are the realistic possibilities for what he'll find on Ithaca....

20:02:59 [apesche] I need to finish the book and then look over all the issues

20:03:06 [rmuehe] Thanks for the chat, the both of you. Goodbye.

20:03:36 [apesche] That would be great....Thanks a lot!

20:03:50 [Anthony] And, finally, Who Is Penelope? Check her out.... Have fun spending 20 minutes or so doing a family tree for her....

20:04:59 [Anthony] OK - looks like Ryan go swept up in the library closing. I'd better move on too. Thanks for coming by, Alison - I hope all is going well for you.

20:05:05 [apesche] okay. Can you suggest some other areas of interest to focus on

20:05:12 [apesche] ?

20:06:03 [apesche] Thanks so much. I'm sure I will be ready for discussion by Monday=)

20:07:06 [Anthony] The ones we've been talking about are all good ones: Helper Figures, the 'Women of Odysseus', Who Is Penelope?, and then the Return of the King....

20:07:32 [Anthony] In the Circe episode: Why pigs?

20:08:10 [apesche] alright- Have a good weekend!

20:08:52 [Anthony] Identity. Truth and Falsehood. Memory. Repute (Fame and Reputation)....

20:09:12 [Anthony] You too! See you Monday! Bye....

20:10:20 [apesche] Bye!